I recently bought some surplus 223 bullets, 75gr TMJ and 90gr Fusion SP. Just wondering what everyone's opinion is on the best powder for these bullets. I'm having a little inconsistency with my measure using the flake type powder, so I was maybe looking for a different kind. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Powder suggestions
- Thread starter gregnsara
- Start date
there are dozens of powders being used with .223. I like Varget with 69 gn and 80 gn but from a throw it will be very inconsistent. I have used CFE .223 with lighter bullets as well as TAC and both are fine ball/flake so they meter consistent charges from a throw. Never tried either with heavier bullets but the data is out there
Jim Watson
New member
AA2520 is a "spherical" powder and measures very precisely.
Its "burn rate" is well suited to high SD bullets, I loaded it for 75-90 gr .223 and 175 gr .308.
Its "burn rate" is well suited to high SD bullets, I loaded it for 75-90 gr .223 and 175 gr .308.
"...manuals don't list any load data for 90gr 223..." 90's in .223 are fairly new and require what would be called a non-standard rifling twist. However, Hodgdon's site has 90 grain data. Says they tested with a 1 in 12 twist. It's suggested on other forums that 1 in 7 is better for those long bullets.
This might help.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifling_twist_rate.htm
This might help.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifling_twist_rate.htm
I suggest you begin by checking your rifling twist. If you have a 1 in 9 twist ,you won't stabilize the 90 gr bullets.
You might stabilize the 75's,but I would not count on it.In my experience,the 69 gr bullets are sweet with a 1 in 9.
A 1 in 8 will stabilize the 75's.Thats what I generally shoot. I spent some time with Varget and H-4895,and I tried TAC. Alliant RE-15 gave best performance for me. The Hornady load manual has a good AR-15 match load page.
A nice thing about the 75 gr bullets is you can load them to fit and feed from a magazine. Both RE-15 and Varget are short cylinders.IMO,they meter just fine through a measure.The case wil be quite full.Your load mght be lightly compressed. When you do your visual powder level check,it will be apparent if something caused a short or long charge.
I do not have experience with the 90 gr bullets. I think you will need a 1 in 7 twist. You won't be able to load them to work from a magazine.You have to single load them.I won't recommend a powder because I have not tried any.
I have not tried 2520 powder in an AR-15. I did try t in a 7.62 NATO FN-FAL.
That was a reliable rifle and it stopped functioning during the second mag due to a nasty,gritty powder fouling. Adjusting the gas system and some oil got it running,but it stayed gritty.
One factor in the performance issues of the M-16 in early VN was a 7.62 ball type powder was substituted for Stoner's recommended powder.The retardant left dirty,gritty fouling that the M-16 did not like.
I scratched 2520 off my list. YMMV
You might stabilize the 75's,but I would not count on it.In my experience,the 69 gr bullets are sweet with a 1 in 9.
A 1 in 8 will stabilize the 75's.Thats what I generally shoot. I spent some time with Varget and H-4895,and I tried TAC. Alliant RE-15 gave best performance for me. The Hornady load manual has a good AR-15 match load page.
A nice thing about the 75 gr bullets is you can load them to fit and feed from a magazine. Both RE-15 and Varget are short cylinders.IMO,they meter just fine through a measure.The case wil be quite full.Your load mght be lightly compressed. When you do your visual powder level check,it will be apparent if something caused a short or long charge.
I do not have experience with the 90 gr bullets. I think you will need a 1 in 7 twist. You won't be able to load them to work from a magazine.You have to single load them.I won't recommend a powder because I have not tried any.
I have not tried 2520 powder in an AR-15. I did try t in a 7.62 NATO FN-FAL.
That was a reliable rifle and it stopped functioning during the second mag due to a nasty,gritty powder fouling. Adjusting the gas system and some oil got it running,but it stayed gritty.
One factor in the performance issues of the M-16 in early VN was a 7.62 ball type powder was substituted for Stoner's recommended powder.The retardant left dirty,gritty fouling that the M-16 did not like.
I scratched 2520 off my list. YMMV
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Marco Califo
New member
See top of this page: List of Official On-Line Load Data Sources
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf
http://www.alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog/2019_Alliant_Powder_Catalog.pdf
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
You need to know your barrel twist rate. Here are 3 methods in decreasing order of preference::
1. Look it up from the manufacturer.
2. Fit a cleaning patch on a jag and get everything very tight. Mark your cleaning rod, go in until the mark gets to the same position. Measure the rod that went into the barrel: 9" equals 1:9 twist.
3. Look down the bore: A 1:12 twist will look slow and lazy. A 1:8 twist will look like a corkscrew. 1:9 is very common and will handle up to 75 gr. At 75 and up you will need to consult a stability calculator, which will require more variables.
http://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml
OK, you have 1:7. Now mag length is a concern. Another is how long a cartridge can your gun chamber? If you go longer than the mag, you are looking at single shot only. But if that is workable you may be able to use all available chamber space and leade: load longer cartridges. Western Powders lists some special long throat loads, but typical guns wont chamber them. I made a dummy round with a long bullet, barely started, and chambered it, with some force on the bolt. Took it out and measured it. That Savage Axis had a long chamber and I could load longer for use in that gun only (2.4"). I have a different Savage 223 heavy barrel that is dead on spec and will not load anything past 2.26" COAL. I would say the 90 gr are going to be a long or special chamber bolt gun proposition only, and skip that entirely for an AR platform.
Loading a 90 gr bullet to 2.26" COAL will push the bullet into your powder space and raise pressure dangerously. Don't try that, not even with a reduced load. Always follow published data for all variables.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf
http://www.alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog/2019_Alliant_Powder_Catalog.pdf
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
You need to know your barrel twist rate. Here are 3 methods in decreasing order of preference::
1. Look it up from the manufacturer.
2. Fit a cleaning patch on a jag and get everything very tight. Mark your cleaning rod, go in until the mark gets to the same position. Measure the rod that went into the barrel: 9" equals 1:9 twist.
3. Look down the bore: A 1:12 twist will look slow and lazy. A 1:8 twist will look like a corkscrew. 1:9 is very common and will handle up to 75 gr. At 75 and up you will need to consult a stability calculator, which will require more variables.
http://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml
OK, you have 1:7. Now mag length is a concern. Another is how long a cartridge can your gun chamber? If you go longer than the mag, you are looking at single shot only. But if that is workable you may be able to use all available chamber space and leade: load longer cartridges. Western Powders lists some special long throat loads, but typical guns wont chamber them. I made a dummy round with a long bullet, barely started, and chambered it, with some force on the bolt. Took it out and measured it. That Savage Axis had a long chamber and I could load longer for use in that gun only (2.4"). I have a different Savage 223 heavy barrel that is dead on spec and will not load anything past 2.26" COAL. I would say the 90 gr are going to be a long or special chamber bolt gun proposition only, and skip that entirely for an AR platform.
Loading a 90 gr bullet to 2.26" COAL will push the bullet into your powder space and raise pressure dangerously. Don't try that, not even with a reduced load. Always follow published data for all variables.
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Some of the longer/heavier bullets ,if you seat the bullet to mag length,have the problem that all of the cylindrical body of the bullet is pushed into the cartridge case before the load is to mag length..so then when you finish seating to length the ogive is actually down in the neck,and you can see space between the case mouth and the bullet.
You can load the Hornady 75 gr HPBT just fine at mag length.The Hornady 75 (or 77?) gr A-Max will have this problem.It won't work at mag length.
Generally,the bullets over 80 gr,that must be single loaded,are used by match shooters for targets 600 yds plus,where the wind bucking power pays off .These match shooters often use 69 to 77 gr bullets loaded to mag length for their 300 yd targets. Unless you intend to single load for long range shooting ,you might want to pass on the 90 gr bullets.
As you are developing your load,I suggest buying and loading in small quantities. Pulling bullets is no one's favorite activity.
I shoot informally in wide open spaces.For myself,Ifind the price and BC ,along with the performance I get with RE-15,make the Hornady 75 gr HPBT my first choice bullet.Honorable mention to the 77 gr SMK and the Nosler 77 CC.
I found the 69 gr HPBT's great ut of my 1 in 9 bbl using Varget.
As I buy Varget in 8 b jugs,use it in 308 with great results,I REALLY wanted Varget to work out for my 75 gr load. Eventually I had to accept my chronograph gave a clear advantage to RE-15. I did not notice significant accuracy advantage for either. You can get charge data from the Hornady load book AR match page.
One off topic tip that may save you some trouble later.Read your die instructions. DO NOT assume it is correct to screw your seating die down to contact the shellholder.
The die has a crimp function built in.Contacting the shellholder will apply the max crimp the die is capable of. Unless your bullet has a very generous crimp groove,there is no place for the crimp to go. This translates to an excessive force being applied to the bullet via the seater stem.
The cartridge case is unsupported inside the seater die. The force causes the shoulder to collapse The case bulges out at the shoulder.You likely will not notice it till you try to chamber such a round. It will get very stuck part way into the chamber. Your shooting day will be messed up.
To set your seating die: Put a piece of brass in the shell holder.Ram up. Back off the seater stem a few turns.Screw the die body down till it contacts the case mouth. Back it off some.A quarter turn will do. Now,note the gap between the die body and the shell holder. Try to find a washer or feeler gauge,something so you can reset that gap the same. A little + or_ does not matter,you just need to accurately repeat the gap.
You may get better concentricity if you put that washer/gauge between the shelholder and the die and put a little load on the die before you set the lock ring down on the press.
Now set your seating depth
You can load the Hornady 75 gr HPBT just fine at mag length.The Hornady 75 (or 77?) gr A-Max will have this problem.It won't work at mag length.
Generally,the bullets over 80 gr,that must be single loaded,are used by match shooters for targets 600 yds plus,where the wind bucking power pays off .These match shooters often use 69 to 77 gr bullets loaded to mag length for their 300 yd targets. Unless you intend to single load for long range shooting ,you might want to pass on the 90 gr bullets.
As you are developing your load,I suggest buying and loading in small quantities. Pulling bullets is no one's favorite activity.
I shoot informally in wide open spaces.For myself,Ifind the price and BC ,along with the performance I get with RE-15,make the Hornady 75 gr HPBT my first choice bullet.Honorable mention to the 77 gr SMK and the Nosler 77 CC.
I found the 69 gr HPBT's great ut of my 1 in 9 bbl using Varget.
As I buy Varget in 8 b jugs,use it in 308 with great results,I REALLY wanted Varget to work out for my 75 gr load. Eventually I had to accept my chronograph gave a clear advantage to RE-15. I did not notice significant accuracy advantage for either. You can get charge data from the Hornady load book AR match page.
One off topic tip that may save you some trouble later.Read your die instructions. DO NOT assume it is correct to screw your seating die down to contact the shellholder.
The die has a crimp function built in.Contacting the shellholder will apply the max crimp the die is capable of. Unless your bullet has a very generous crimp groove,there is no place for the crimp to go. This translates to an excessive force being applied to the bullet via the seater stem.
The cartridge case is unsupported inside the seater die. The force causes the shoulder to collapse The case bulges out at the shoulder.You likely will not notice it till you try to chamber such a round. It will get very stuck part way into the chamber. Your shooting day will be messed up.
To set your seating die: Put a piece of brass in the shell holder.Ram up. Back off the seater stem a few turns.Screw the die body down till it contacts the case mouth. Back it off some.A quarter turn will do. Now,note the gap between the die body and the shell holder. Try to find a washer or feeler gauge,something so you can reset that gap the same. A little + or_ does not matter,you just need to accurately repeat the gap.
You may get better concentricity if you put that washer/gauge between the shelholder and the die and put a little load on the die before you set the lock ring down on the press.
Now set your seating depth
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My personal experience has been that CFE223 for my bolt gun and 8208XBR for my gas gun. For dies I use the Redding competition body die for sizing the Lee collet neck sizing die and the redding competition micrometer seating die. I use 77gr SMK at mag length. As far as I know no crimp involved. Never had one come apart. My guns didn't care for Varget. My 308s love it.
lordmorgul
New member
Accurate LT32 has similar burn and performance, is a stick powder but is finer chopped than Varget so it meters quite well by volume.
Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member