Powder Storage Issues

T

tooslim

New member
Good afternoon.

New guy here, but I've been hand loading since the 1970s. I broke my leg last summer and have been laid up since July. I recently decided to restart ammo production and when I opened my power storage box I found that the lid on a canister of IMR 4451 had completely disintegrated. All that remained of the lid was a reddish dust at the bottom of the box and some red film that must have been the paint on the lid. I probed the dust with a pick and found nothing sold. The lid had dissolved.

The metal lids on the rest of the canisters in the storage bin showed serious degradation as well.

I contacted Hodgdon and was told the powder had gone bad due to excess heat. They also advised discarding the powder in the damaged canisters. I have disposed of all of it.

I'm writing this because I keep reloading supplies in a semi climate controlled garage. The maximum temperatures it sees are in the upper 80s to perhaps 90 on the rare occasion. The Hodgdon rep's position was they make no claims regarding powder shelf life and the 90 is too hot.

I don't know if my experience is a one - off or closer to the norm. That said, be advised, that some of these powders seem exceptionally sensitive to storage temperature.
 
The Hodgdon rep's position was they make no claims regarding powder shelf life and the 90 is too hot.
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people say a lot of things. What do they put in writing?? Not just on the container label but also check out their product information and handing literature.

90F isn't desirable, but it should not be to hot to cause immediate and complete powder degradation. 140 I could see, but 90??

Its not impossible that they have changed the stability of their powders, but they should have posted limitations somewhere. You may have to dig a bit to find it, though. MSDS or whatever they call it nowadays, product literature, etc.

Generally, chemical products have a shelf life given by the maker. A product, stored under the makers recommendations should remain viable during that stated shelf life period. Often products remain good for some time after their
expiration date, but not always, and makers set their shelf life dates well within the range of time they expect the product to lase UNDER PROPER STORAGE CONDITIONS.

But that maker must tell you, in advance (somewhere in their literature) what those proper storage conditions are.

Simply stating over the phone (or email etc) that "well, 90F is too hot" is nothing but someone's opinion, there needs to be published information available with the product stating what is, and isn't proper storage conditions.

I would hope your experience is a one off, and not the norm. It never used to be the norm. but that was back when products were made and expected to last a decent amount of time....:rolleyes:
 
Welcone!

If you had a lid rust off, i would guess they were exposed to heat and humidity probably for a fair duration considering all the hodgdon i have bought in the last 10yrs has plastic lids.

I would think sub 90 would be ok, although the cooler the better.

How long have you had the powder?

How long was it stored there?

Any idea on the humidity?

Might i suggest some of the mtm ammo crates and silica gel? I use the acr8. Fits 1lb hodgins cans standing up. Around 15 cans per crate total. https://mtmcase-gard.com/collections/ammo-crates

They are sturdy, and have a gasket. But flexible enough they would not hold pressure or explode in a fire.
 
The Enduron powders are now discontinued. IMR 4007SSC is also discontinued after a recall that started with one lot and was later expanded to all of them due to premature degradation. Sounds like IMR has been having some formulation problems.
 
Thanks to all for the replies. In In all the years I've been handloading I've known a lot of folk in hot humid areas (think Houston) that were really pretty lackadaisical about powder storage and had never seen anything like that canister of 4451. It was a shock. I bought a couple of canisters of 4451 and 4416 a couple of years ago when I couldn't find any H4350. I could never craft a load that would shoot as well in my 260 as 4350 so the 4451 fell into disuse. Now that I've run into this, I'll probably dispose of the rest of it.

This is south Texas so the outside temps in the summer routinely rise to the upper 90s and low 100s. It can get humid outside. 50 to 90% at night and 30 to 60% on really muggy days. Winter highs range from the 40s to the 80s.

My reloading area is in the garage which is surrounded above and on two sides by the house. The garage is decently insulated by the surrounding house and ground so I find it tolerable to work in most of the time without AC. The highest it sees inside in the summer is probably in the upper 80s to maybe 90 on rare occasions. I usually call it a day when it gets above 85. The humidity runs on the 40-60 percent range.

I must have been living in a cave, I had not heard about the discontinuation of the Enduron line. Perhaps this may have contributed to its departure.

Thanks again.
 
I would be curious on how old the powder was. I think they all have plastic lids for some time.

And if its a recalled powder they should have a way to submit and get your money back. I took a look and some as Unclenick noted actual recalled and some just discontinued. I had some 4155 and as noted, its shot well. Still, done a ton of shooting and my guns don't build copper though they tend to custom barrels but shot a lot of Mil Surplus and not an issue either.

Accurate did a while back as I recall.
 
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The Enduron powders are now discontinued. IMR 4007SSC is also discontinued after a recall that started with one lot and was later expanded to all of them due to premature degradation. Sounds like IMR has been having some formulation problems.
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I did not know the enduron powders were discontinued. Is there a potential chemical reaction threat due to their formulation? I ask this because I have MANY pounds of enduron powders--and they are stored in close proximity to my other powders.:eek:
 
The primary corrosive chemical used in making modern smokeless powder is nitric acid. The other chemicals used to stabilize the powder and/or control the burn rate rarely have any noticeable effect when the powder's chemical composition breaks down, but the Nitric DOES.

The "rust" and the red dust is from nitric acid fumes. Nitric loves to eat brass, and iron. Most metals, are vulnerable, to some degree. Stainless steel is not. Glass and certain plastics are not harmed by Nitric.

I'd suggest you use all your Enduron powders up, as a priority. Load and SHOOT them up. The same factors that let a powder go bad in its can are at work in ammo loaded with that powder. Over time, as the powder degrades nitric fumes will attack the brass, weakening it, resulting in cracks, holes, even complete separation in some cases, before the powder goes completely inert. So, just loading that powder into rounds doesn't solve the problem, and in fact only means you will have rounds with an unknown and unknowable shelf life. When powder degrades inside loaded ammo, often the only salvageable thing is the bullet.

If the Enduron powder you have now is still good, use it up so you get something for your money, before it turns into something only good as nitrate fertilizer for your lawn.
 
I did some net searching and couldn't find any examples of accelerated decomposition particularly related as an accelerated function of enduron powders. I've had a couple of powders "go bad" (acid smell and reddish dust residue)--but they weren't enduron. I did find mention that IMR discontinued them around 2019--but did not see anything specific to inherent instability as the reason--rather it seemed supply issues--fire at the factory--increased military demand etc. I'm not saying I don't believe it, just that I was caught "off-guard" by the revelation.
 
I should point out that Hodgdon never published a reason for the discontinuation, whether it was lack of sales, lack of supply, or, as Tooslim found, premature degradation, which could be the result of something as simple as too little stabilizer or a change in stabilizer that didn't work out in the long run. Stabilizers are anti-oxidants that react with any stray nitric acid radicals to prevent them from disassembling nitrocellulose molecules.

I can tell you I had a curious experience in this regard. My dad had picked up a 1/4 lb sample of Vihtavuori N140 at Camp Perry and shared it with me. I grabbed a spare plastic container but set it on a shelf where it got behind something, and I forgot about it for a few years. When I was moving things on the shelf, I relocated the container and found I had something similar to what Tooslim described.

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Subsequently, I read several mentions of a lot of N140 that had been going bad and assumed that's what I had. However, going through Dad's garage one day, I found the original sample container, a VV jar, and a snap lid. The powder in it was still just fine. So, this was a case of an incompatible storage container. It is a reminder that the powder companies have the right containers, and you should probably stick to using theirs. If you have occasion to get a sample like that, take an empty commercial powder container and relabel it before improvising with a non-powder purposed container.
 
Oy vey--I have lots of N 140 as well.:o

I'm wondering if a regular inspection is required of one's powder collection--including unopened containers. As an aside, I've noticed that over time it seems lids on commercial plastic containers tend to work themselves loose.
 
I've worked with both nitric acid and hydrochloric acid as mordants for a long time in etching copper and zinc. They both emit a toxic gas as a by-product of oxidizing when the acid reacts with the metals. Makes me wonder if there is not some kind of way of testing the air inside a container of powder for a percentage of gas to determine stability?
 
Makes me wonder if there is not some kind of way of testing the air inside a container of powder for a percentage of gas to determine stability?
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Not without opening the container.

industrial systems are built with sample valves or test ports. Reloading powder cannisters are not. Opening a sealed container to test may just start the very process you are hoping to avoid. Testing an "in use" container would be possible and wouldn't do any harm, but you need the equipment to do so (something that measures acid vapor in the parts per million range, but this is not impossible. Industial Safety testing equipment can be had and something like Draeger Tubes are not astronomically expensive.

However, you also need the information about the powder, and what level of acid vapor indicates what level of degradation.

6ppm Nitric fumes require supplied air to work in that atmosphere. That's the industry standard. However, that reading isn't always what to go by. I go by (what's left of) my nose. Nitric is pretty "safe" stuff in that regard. If you can smell it, its too much, even if the PPM reading is below the limit. It has good "warning properties". You will smell it, before it reaches harmful levels. That being said, the difference between smelling it and having it take your breath away and cause harm can be just the difference between one breath and the next! :eek:

I spent 15 years working a chemical plant that dissolved spent nuclear fuel in Nitric acid. I have extensive experience working with Nitric from 1.2M to 12M concentrations and experience working with Hydrochloric, Sulphuric, Hydrofluoric and Oxalic acid. Also high concentration sodium Hydroxide, Potassium Hydroxide and even 56wt% Hydrogen Peroxide. ALL these are very NASTY things that you shouldn't breath and dissolve all kinds of things.

I cannot stress enough the "best practice" to keep smokeless powder ONLY in its original factory container!!! Putting it into anything else opens up the possibility of chemical reaction with the new container. A different plastic or metal can result in the chemical reaction of poweder degradation that the original container (generally) prevents.

Same goes for leaving powder in the powder measure hopper. MAY not be a problem, but CAN be. When you're finished loading ALWAYS pour the remaining powder back into its factory container.

And, do I need to mention, ONLY ONE container of powder on the bench at all times??? :D
 
My MO has been to put the powder into a plastic container that has a plastic screw lid these days.

I could be wrong but basically the new plastic plastic caps should be inert to anything powder related. I see the 4155 advertised both with a metal cap and a plastic cap.

I have a couple of old powder I keep in the old metal cans, a rather cute can of AL-8 that is nostalgic as I don't plan to use it for anything.

I did recover a box of powder some years back, various metal and cardboard container types. The guy wanted a ton of money, hmmm. Rusty lids, some was simply bad, I gave him $25 for the lot and used the good stuff.
 
Ok, good item for conversation. I keep some of the plastic containers and lids particularity the 1 lb type.

I buy 8 lbs when I can (pun). Them I move to a 1 lb container (after I rip the lable off and put the right label on, when in doubt check the color and mike the grains and that is a pretty good ID as long as you use fewer powders, or throw it away if you can't)

I have seen no powder that has not come in a plastic container and they are all black.

So, I assume they are made of a common inert material (and yes I could be wrong but I have had no powder go bad doing it that way for years now)

R-17 comes in a 5 lb container that does not fit my shelf area (too tall). I move it into 1 lb. If I can (pun again) I use the plastic container with the right powder ID on it.
 
I have seen no powder that has not come in a plastic container and they are all black.
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Over the years powder has come in metal cans, fiberboard containers and various plastic containers, one thing they all have in common is that they are all opaque to light. There's a reason for that.
 
Over the years powder has come in metal cans, fiberboard containers and various plastic containers, one thing they all have in common is that they are all opaque to light. There's a reason for that.
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I think more than likely the number one degradation factor is ambient humidity. I've come across a fair share of factory ammo in boxes that have shown degradation from within the cases.
 
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