I bought a box of 125 grain .358 dia. LRNFP for .38 Spec. light load target use to get my wife into shooting center fire handguns. Loaded 20 rounds with 3.5 grains of Tite Group. Very accurate load, but still may be a bit on the snappy side for a beginner. Hodgdon's web site lists this bullet and powder as start 3.2 and max 3.8. Would 3.0 work, or am I asking for troubles?
Powder Puff .38 Special
- Thread starter Mike38
- Start date
In my experience, very light loads in a revolver is always flirting with danger... however, that is not to say that you shouldn't do it. Simply -- know WHY and be very aware so that if/when you are faced with a PROBLEM, it can merely be a problem that is dealt with before it becomes a catastrophe.
The obvious issue is sticking a bullet. What is not always so obvious is WHY. In my opinion, the big wildcard is the flash gap which ends up as a pressure relief valve -- but not in a good or productive way. Especially on the low end, we very much need a minimum amount of pressure to ensure the bullet leaves the barrel and that flash gap gives that crucial pressure somewhere to escape. And that's how it causes us trouble.
And the lighter the bullet...
The less pressure, complicating things further.
The most important thing when going down the wormhole of "extremely light loads in revolvers" is, IMO, to use a lead bullet.
For two reasons that sound similar: the lead bullet is easier (FAR EASIER) to push down the barrel. This makes it less likely that you will stick one and it makes it FAR easier to remove if you do.
Perhaps obvious... but just as important (more?) in this game is ensuring that every shot you take shows you visually that a bullet left the barrel. What sounds elementary becomes horribly difficult depending on the conditions. A new or novice shooter? A crowded range with a lot of gunfire? That's like playing Russian Roulette.
Should you do this? Absolutely!
Just know going in that you, your shooter and your revolver are in a spot with some associated risks.
It's better for you to sink a LOT of time & care in to it long before you add a novice shooter in to the mix.
The obvious issue is sticking a bullet. What is not always so obvious is WHY. In my opinion, the big wildcard is the flash gap which ends up as a pressure relief valve -- but not in a good or productive way. Especially on the low end, we very much need a minimum amount of pressure to ensure the bullet leaves the barrel and that flash gap gives that crucial pressure somewhere to escape. And that's how it causes us trouble.
And the lighter the bullet...
The less pressure, complicating things further.
The most important thing when going down the wormhole of "extremely light loads in revolvers" is, IMO, to use a lead bullet.
For two reasons that sound similar: the lead bullet is easier (FAR EASIER) to push down the barrel. This makes it less likely that you will stick one and it makes it FAR easier to remove if you do.
Perhaps obvious... but just as important (more?) in this game is ensuring that every shot you take shows you visually that a bullet left the barrel. What sounds elementary becomes horribly difficult depending on the conditions. A new or novice shooter? A crowded range with a lot of gunfire? That's like playing Russian Roulette.
Should you do this? Absolutely!
Just know going in that you, your shooter and your revolver are in a spot with some associated risks.
It's better for you to sink a LOT of time & care in to it long before you add a novice shooter in to the mix.
Sevens and I are on the same page when it comes to concerns about sticking a bullet in revolvers with undercharged rounds. We've seen tons of each-other's posts on this.
I kind of have two questions; or maybe, one and a half
. . .
What gun is shooting these? And . . .
How likely is it that your wife just gets used to the round you're currently loading?
If the firearm of question is a 5-shot concealable snubbie, I can see that being a problem. And if that is the case, moving the load down may be in order.
But if the gun is larger, maybe it would be better on focusing on getting your wife used to the recoil.
Just a thought. Ultimately, you'd want her to be able to handle "business level" (defense) charges. But I also understand that it's a process of progression.
About your specific loading: I'm nearly certain it's safe to move the charge down, should you see the need. But in your load "workdowns," make sure you see the bullet path (hole in paper, backstop disruption, etc.).
I kind of have two questions; or maybe, one and a half
. . . What gun is shooting these? And . . .
How likely is it that your wife just gets used to the round you're currently loading?
If the firearm of question is a 5-shot concealable snubbie, I can see that being a problem. And if that is the case, moving the load down may be in order.
But if the gun is larger, maybe it would be better on focusing on getting your wife used to the recoil.
Just a thought. Ultimately, you'd want her to be able to handle "business level" (defense) charges. But I also understand that it's a process of progression.
About your specific loading: I'm nearly certain it's safe to move the charge down, should you see the need. But in your load "workdowns," make sure you see the bullet path (hole in paper, backstop disruption, etc.).
Thank you for the replies. Yes, it's a five shot snubbie, a S&W M60-7 to be exact. I went ahead and loaded 20 rounds at the "starting" point of 3.2 grains of Tite Group. I'll try those tomorrow and see if they seem light enough for a beginner. My wife wants to shoot a center fire real bad. She's not bad with a Ruger 22/45, so it's time to give it a go.
The best powder for really light loads is TRAILBOSS. You measure the amount of powder it takes to fill the case below your bullet, then use 3/4 of that for your load.
Very light recoil and very accurate loads. No chance of a double charge because you will overflow the case if you try to overcharge a load.
Very light recoil and very accurate loads. No chance of a double charge because you will overflow the case if you try to overcharge a load.
Hammerhead
New member
with cast bullets in a short barrel, you should be able to go below the listed starting load by a bit, but it's best to work the load down.
The reduction from 3.5 to 3.2 doesn't sound like much, but the lower you go, pressure drops off rapidly, 3.2 might be all the reduction you need.
The reduction from 3.5 to 3.2 doesn't sound like much, but the lower you go, pressure drops off rapidly, 3.2 might be all the reduction you need.
mtlucas0311
New member
I don't load 125's, but I do load 148 HBWC's and DEWC's. A friend of mine whom also shoots the PPC league with me loads 100 gn. button nose. We both load 2.4 gns of WST, so the 125's will be fine. recoil is similar to a 22lr in a PPC gun with a bull barrel and just a bit more in my 4" S&W 66-1. It is imperative that you only use lead bullets with these loads, jacketed bullets and even plated bullets will not reliably make it to the muzzle. This load is extremely common with indoor PPC shooters.
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jetinteriorguy
New member
If you can lay your hands on some 148gr wadcutters and some Bullseye try 2.7 gr. it's a standard target load and very pleasant to shoot.
Don't do this if you are not completely comfortable with the idea!
Alternately, since the 125's are short, you can put 2.6 grains of Tightgroup in and seat the bullet backward and press its base flush with the case mouth, then roll the crimp over it so they shoot like wadcutters. QuickLOAD suggests the shorter resulting powder space will reach the same peak pressure with 2.6 grains of Tightgroup that 3.2 grains reaches with the bullet seated frontwards and protruding to Hodgdon's listed COL. This should still be about 800 fps from a 6" revolver barrel. About 50 fps less than Hodgdon's listed minimum. Still a good target velocity.
And, they will make nice, clean holes in paper. They'll just have lower extreme range. Shooting them past 50 yards will be iffy from a 6" gun. A little less with shorter barrels.
Alternately, since the 125's are short, you can put 2.6 grains of Tightgroup in and seat the bullet backward and press its base flush with the case mouth, then roll the crimp over it so they shoot like wadcutters. QuickLOAD suggests the shorter resulting powder space will reach the same peak pressure with 2.6 grains of Tightgroup that 3.2 grains reaches with the bullet seated frontwards and protruding to Hodgdon's listed COL. This should still be about 800 fps from a 6" revolver barrel. About 50 fps less than Hodgdon's listed minimum. Still a good target velocity.
And, they will make nice, clean holes in paper. They'll just have lower extreme range. Shooting them past 50 yards will be iffy from a 6" gun. A little less with shorter barrels.
My suggestion would be to use a standard wadcutter of any description. putting the bullet flush with the case mouth puts your entire charge in a smaller powder cavity, allowing the charge to build higher pressure while ejecting the bullet, and that bullet will have traveled a whole lot further and gained better velocity when it eventually jumps the bridge at the cylinder gap. To put a small, lightweight 125 bullet on top of a large empty space with a powder charge appropriate to a tiny case isn't the best situation. Many slow heavy duty powders would just fizzle out, not every time, but eventually it might happen with one, and cause a disaster.
I just suggest taking the lightweight bullseye loads that people are describing for you. 140 grain bullets are practically the same as the 125 ballistically. The smaller charges are far better suited to a heavier bullet and a smaller powder space. Regardless, the standard bullseye wadcutter is probably going to be the very lightest recoil loads that you can create.
IMO, take this very seriously, get yourself a few hundred of them. Work with the wadcutters for a few hundred rounds, and then use the 125s once the recoil tolerance has built up some.
I just suggest taking the lightweight bullseye loads that people are describing for you. 140 grain bullets are practically the same as the 125 ballistically. The smaller charges are far better suited to a heavier bullet and a smaller powder space. Regardless, the standard bullseye wadcutter is probably going to be the very lightest recoil loads that you can create.
IMO, take this very seriously, get yourself a few hundred of them. Work with the wadcutters for a few hundred rounds, and then use the 125s once the recoil tolerance has built up some.
sawdustdad
New member
2.8g of 700x or Clays is a nice target load with 125g lead or moly coated bullet seated normally. Use a decent crimp.
firewrench044
New member
38spl powder puff load-
102gr Rem. JHP ( 380 bullet .356 )
5.2gr Win. 231 ( or HP 38 )
#500 CCI primer
COAL 1.150
Taper crimp
( cleaner burning than the other powders I tried )
380 bullet is .356 and 38 is .357-- they work very good
Tested load in her snubby, a 5 inch 38spl and a 6 inch barrel 357
Developed load for an elderly female, she had trouble with standard
38 loads ( recoil )and can not operate the slide on any semi auto
Very low recoil in her 38 spl ,5 shot , Alum. frame snubby
She finds it easier for her to clean the copper rather than the lead
from the barrel
This is her CCW load
Taper crimp 38spl die available from RCBS
( I found no bullet movement with the taper crimp )
Tool to put crimping ring on any bullet available from CORBIN
Others have used 100gr 380 bullets for their wives
102gr Rem. JHP ( 380 bullet .356 )
5.2gr Win. 231 ( or HP 38 )
#500 CCI primer
COAL 1.150
Taper crimp
( cleaner burning than the other powders I tried )
380 bullet is .356 and 38 is .357-- they work very good
Tested load in her snubby, a 5 inch 38spl and a 6 inch barrel 357
Developed load for an elderly female, she had trouble with standard
38 loads ( recoil )and can not operate the slide on any semi auto
Very low recoil in her 38 spl ,5 shot , Alum. frame snubby
She finds it easier for her to clean the copper rather than the lead
from the barrel
This is her CCW load
Taper crimp 38spl die available from RCBS
( I found no bullet movement with the taper crimp )
Tool to put crimping ring on any bullet available from CORBIN
Others have used 100gr 380 bullets for their wives
OverPressure
New member
38 125 Gr Light Load
I was loading 3.8 grains of Titegroup with a CCI SPP and getting
a blow over condition. In a half a dozen out of a 100 the powder
didn't ignite. This was a S&S 125 gr conical. I placed a 1 mil
wad over the powder and was shooting 840 fps. Very nice load.
Nobody i talked to had ever had the problem with Titegroup.
The powder was sitting behind the bullet half way down the
barrel!!! I had a hard time buying it and i was shooting the gun.
I use Titegroup for my 357 loads and my S&W 500. The powder
was fine.
I was loading 3.8 grains of Titegroup with a CCI SPP and getting
a blow over condition. In a half a dozen out of a 100 the powder
didn't ignite. This was a S&S 125 gr conical. I placed a 1 mil
wad over the powder and was shooting 840 fps. Very nice load.
Nobody i talked to had ever had the problem with Titegroup.
The powder was sitting behind the bullet half way down the
barrel!!! I had a hard time buying it and i was shooting the gun.
I use Titegroup for my 357 loads and my S&W 500. The powder
was fine.
A light, short barreled .38 isn't a good "starting" gun. I would introduce a shooter to .38 shooting with a heavier gun; preferably one with a 4" barrel, steel frame, and full grips.
But, you have the gun and you want your wife to learn to shoot, so I guess I'd say use a light bullet (I like Lee's 125 gr. RNFP) and light, around starting loads, of Bullseye or other fast powder (fellers above are correct about "squib loads" sticking a bullet in the barrel, even if it's just 2"). Recoil and nose aren't gonna just go away and some "tolerance" on the part of the shooter is necessary. Otherwise a 22 LR. revolver is suggested first...
But, you have the gun and you want your wife to learn to shoot, so I guess I'd say use a light bullet (I like Lee's 125 gr. RNFP) and light, around starting loads, of Bullseye or other fast powder (fellers above are correct about "squib loads" sticking a bullet in the barrel, even if it's just 2"). Recoil and nose aren't gonna just go away and some "tolerance" on the part of the shooter is necessary. Otherwise a 22 LR. revolver is suggested first...
^^ 'xactly. ^^
I'm a revolver guy. I shoot a lot of wheelguns. A lot. I mean, a lot.
Frankly, I'm a pretty darn good shot with a revolver (all double-action). Been doing it for decades. But to this day, I struggle shooting my Model 60 with any kind of consistency (owned since '84). They are difficult guns to shoot well. I can't even image learning on one.
We shoot what we have. I get it. Fortunately, she has rimfire experience working for her. Hope it goes well.
mtlucas0311
New member
The last two posts make a great point. I too shoot a lot of revolver, PPC and bullseye. I'm partial to K frame S&W's and have found them to be excellent "starter" guns for new shooters. It's easy to find a set of stocks that fit the shooters hand and nice pistols are readily available under $500. Not sure how big a deal money is, but the prices on older revolvers are pretty stable, but creeping up. You could buy something like a model 14 or 15 (whatever your barrel preference is), train/practice with it for a year or two, and sell it for the same or more money than you bought it for.
Jim Watson
New member
A friend loads this for CAS. It is a real powderpuff in a big SAA.
I had that happen with 4.2 gr HP38 and a BBI 125 gr conical seated to the same OAL as my usual 158 gr RN. Several mushy sounding shots, then a stuck bullet with the powder behind it.
The next batch, I seated the conicals shorter with the crimp rolled over the step from bearing surface to ogive. They shot OK but I went back to the 158 with a lighter powder charge. Now I make the reduced IDPA SSR power factor with no ignition trouble and better accuracy with fixed sights.
I don't see 2 tenths of a grain being catastrophic. Try a couple of rounds and see what they feel like. Even load a few at 2.8 grains
Should be good to go. I am currently loading 160 grain coated lead bullets with 3.5 grains of Titegroup. Chrono is telling me my rounds are between 750-760fps