Poor accuracy with cast bullets need help

N

Nosh

Inactive
I need help figuring out why both my S&W 686's will shoot jacketed bullets accuracetly (.75-1.2") groups @ 25yds yet with cast (laser Cast 158gr SWC) they barely stay on the paper.

I have tried several different loads in 38spc and 357 with clays, tight group, and H 110 with the same poor results. I suspect the cast bullet diameters don't match the bore size well but I am not sure.

Also the cast bullets are leading at the forcing cone (not sure if that is the right term) which I was surprised due to the claims of the Laser Cast bullet people. Is a little leading always going to happen with even the hardest cast bulltets? Please help.

Thanks Much,

Nosh
 
Nosh
You don't state your load. They might be to hot!
If you want a mild accurate load try 2.7 grains of Bullseye with a 148 gr. wc.
Or a light charge of Bullseye or WW231 with your other bullets.
Your groups will shrink.
Michael
 
Any time your using H110 with cast bullets

You should use a lead bullet that has a gass check, This is a small cap that fits on the end back end of the bullet, NOTE: It must be the type of bullet that will accept a gas check.
In most casses if your loading lead bullets you want to stay under 1000 fps loads, and H110 is not a good powder for light loads.
If your shooting lead I would stay with 231, bullseye, or unique and keep the loads what ever you shoot under 1000fps.
I would also check the gun for lead deposits before shooting any more jacked rounds.
The loading books that I have dont even show loads using H110 for lead bullets and if your loading to normal jacked ammo pressures you probably have smeared the barrel with lead.
 
Gas checks arent really needed for normal handgun velocities(under 1500 FPS)...there could be a whole slew of problems, but my guess would be the bullets are too small for your bore. Most revolvers shoot best with bullets .002 over the size of the bore. For instance...if your bore measured out at .358, .360 bullets would probably give the best results. Some manufacturer recomend only .001 over, but ive found with stiff loads with hardcast bullets that its not enough and will still cause leading. Try using different charges, or even different powders and see if you still get the same results. .001 over will usually shoot well with lighter plinking loads, but watch out when you try to hot rod em! Shooting cast is a great way to save some money, but it takes alot more time and comitment to make them shoot well. Best thing to do is clean the bore completly...if i get a leaded bore, i run a few jacketed rounds down it and it usually knocks most of the lead fouling out then just follow up with the cleaner of your choice. Starting with a clean bore will tell you what works and what doesnt. I would also suggest you pick up a copy of lymans cast bullet manual...tons of great info and good load data.
 
Your problem is definately bullet diameter. As the previous poster said, go .002" over your slugged bore diameter. You may find it hard to find bullets that size, since, for economy's sake, most companies only go with standard sizes.

Gas checks are a waste, IMO, for handguns. I load magnum loads for some of my handguns, including .357's and .44's, and have no leading problems with properly sized cast bullets. In some rifle cast bullet loads, they help, but are usually not necessary. Leading is caused by flame blowing by the bullet, due to a poor seal. If you have a tight fitting bullet, the flame is contained behind the bullet and leading is almost completely eliminated.

If you need cast bullets sized to a specific, non-standard diameter, call Mike Morton at M&P Cast Bullets, 802-254-5296. He'll size whatever diameter you want them to be.

Most cast bullet companies have been closing down lately. Several large companies, including Laser Cast from what I just heard, have closed. The main reason is that they were barely doubling their money on a ton of lead! When you factor in electricity, labor, taxes, rent/mortgages and maintenance on their $12,000 casting and auto lubing machines, I can see why they go bankrupt.
 
Normal hand gun volocities of 1500 or less?

Thats a good one. normal
I would like to know what loading manual your using that shows lead bullet loads running 1500 FPS for a 158 gr bullet thats lead.
The top loads listed in the Speer manual for 158 gran bullets is only 1300 with max load of H110 and thats jacketed bullets not lead and the only bullets that running 1500 are 125 gran.
All the loading manuals that I have there is nothing over 1050 for a 158 gr bullet and none use H110. Its to hot and causes the bullets to shead lead on the lands of the barrel in stead of stabilizing in the barrel.
Lead bullets should be sized to .358.
To say that its a bullet problem when the lead bullets are .358 and your trying to push them at volocities that are greater than the gun is designed is looking for problems, dangerious problems.
So again keep lead bullets that at or below 1000 fps and if there the right diamiter .358 they will be accurate as you are able.
If your going for more than 1000 fps then stay with jacketed, that was why the were designed
 
Ozzie, just about everything in that post was a bunch of BS!! The reason i say normal handgun loads under 1500 FPS is that you dont see too many that arent super light bullets, with rediculous amount of powder in long barrels. If you would pick up a REAL reloading book like the Lyman, you would discover the joys of shooting cast bullets really quick. Your not seeing any cast loading data in your speer manuals becuase speer doesnt make too many lead bullets...they only print data for the bullets they make. Lymans cast manual on the otherhand has nothing but cast data and ZERO jacketed. Theres TONS of loads that exceed 1500 FPS with a plain based(non-gaschecked design) in there for semi-short barreled handguns. To say that you cant load lead past 1000 FPS is the most ignorant statement ive EVER heard....ive pushed cast bullets in in the high 2000, low 3000 FPS range without any leading. Lead bullets for a .357 should NOT be sized .358...they should be sized a thousanth or two over the bore diameter which is rarely the perfect number of .357 or even .358, but of couce you would know that already since your such the expert on shooting cast! :rolleyes:
 
I think the key here is the fact that he's buying Laser-Cast bullets, not casting them himself. Laser-Cast bullets are sized .001" over standard bore size. This could be a problem, but I agree with those that say he's driving them too hard. I don't know of any "light" loads with H110.

My advice would be to slow those suckers down!
Remember that LC bullets are a economy bullet also, they aren't the best, even of the pre-made lead bullets. You could also try Cast-Performance LBT bullets, but they cost as much as jacketed bullets.

If you want to really tune for cast bullets, get the Lyman books. Their standard reloading handbook and their casting books are the places to start. They are probably the best place to go for the beginning caster. But, from what I'm told casting is like shooting and reloading, it's a whole 'nother addiction in itself. Be warned.
 
Agreed. Cast bullets should be sized .002" OVERSIZE from your bore diameter. To say all cast bullets for the .357 should be cast to .358 makes no sense at all. How, then, do you compensate for varying bore dimensions? Slug your bore, then size your bullets, or buy them sized, .002" over. Leading issues solved.

Now, for cast bullet loads for the 158gr lead bullet. Here is what is listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook:

Bullet 358311 (158gr RN)- loads listed up to 1461 fps.
Bullet 358429 (168gr SWC)- loads up to 1318 fps.
Bullet 358156 (155gr SWC)- up to 1363 (and that's the only gas checked bullet listed!!)
Bullet 358477 (150gr SWC)- up to 1459 fps

And, for H110 being too hot ALL THE LOADS LISTED ABOVE ARE WITH H110!

You need more than one loading manual if you reload. But, if you reload cast bullets, only one will suffice, the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. It does not just list load data, it give you info on everything from mixing alloys, sizing, ballistics, etc. Basically, if you need to know it, or should know it, about shooting/loading cast bullets, it's in there.
 
Hawg, the Lyman is good info. BUT they also tell you what alloy to cast for the loads, yes?

The thing here is he's BUYING pre-made bullets. And that company (as most compaines that cast bullets) only size them .001" over. Which is why I say that he's propbably driving them too fast. If he cast his own, then he could tailor a bullet to his gun that he can drive hard (the main advantage of casting).

Maybe I'm wrong. . .
 
Well

I have had enough of this exchange.
If you want to tell some one that does not know that much about reloading that its ok to push lead bullets as hard as jacketed I am not going to argue.
Please stop
and leave me out of it.
You were the first one to us the BS
I am gone
 
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Im getting just a hair over 1500 FPS with a 157 grain RNFP out of my blackhawk 6 1/2" barrel...call it BS all you want, but the loads have been pressure tested and are perfectly safe. :rolleyes: Please at least research the subject a little bit before you spit out non-sence!
 
I find a good charge for this type of projectile in a 686 is 4gr WST - accurate to 50 yds. If that doesn't work go up to 4.5 gr. If you are going to shoot a lot of these types of cast projectiles it is worth getting your gunsmith to expand the forcing cone and crown the barrel - and check the cylinder gap while he's at it. I assume that you are taper-crimping and seating the projectile at the right level.
 
Hawg, the Lyman is good info. BUT they also tell you what alloy to cast for the loads, yes?

The thing here is he's BUYING pre-made bullets. And that company (as most compaines that cast bullets) only size them .001" over. Which is why I say that he's propbably driving them too fast. If he cast his own, then he could tailor a bullet to his gun that he can drive hard (the main advantage of casting).

Maybe I'm wrong. . .

Yes, the Lyman book tells you to use #2 alloy, I believe. Most cast bullet companies out there cast them even harder than that. They think it prevents leading, but it doesn't.

That's why I mentioned M&P Cast Bullets. If you order from him, just tell him what diameter you want them sized to, and he'll take care of you.

If you want to tell some one that does not know that much about reloading that its ok to push lead bullets as hard as jacketed I am not going to argue.

OK, I'll leave you out of it. But, I'll say it again. Yes, you can push your cast bullets as fast as jacketed, if they are properly fitted to the bore. If that's not the case, I'll bet nobody told Elmer Keith that when he started loading his .44spl overpressure (which I would never recommend exceeding the max charge on anything), or maxing out his .44mag with a SWC of his own design (which is similar to Lyman's 421429, but I've read that RCBS's mould is closer to his actual design due to the lube groove).

If you read up bullet casting, sizing, lubing and reloading in the Cast Bullet Handbook, you will understand more than you can imagine. I've read it cover to cover, and I can't tell you how much I leared from it.

There is also a book out there which explains max velocity with cast bullets, but I think it's out of print. I've been looking for a copy for years, but have yet to find one. It's title is Making Cast Bullets Perform Like Jacketed Bullets, or something similar to that.
 
If I may weigh in here...

The most important problem you have here--and the cause of the leading--is that the bullet is too HARD.

"What?!?", you scream. "Heresy!" "Cast Bullets are supposed to he HARD CAST, you dolt!"

Taint always so, sportsfans.

The reason lead bullets tend to be more accurate all has to do with bearing surface, lubricity of lead to barrel steel, and bore fit.

You see, when the bullet is whacked in the rump by all that expanding powder gas, it must swage out, or obturate, to fully fit the bore. A soft lead slug will do this. One of the most accurate bullets for the .45 pistol--the Star 185 grain SWCHP--is swaged from dead soft lead.

Now, when you use a hard cast bullet at normal handgun velocities, the bullet is simply too hard to obturate. Thus, hot gasses cut their way AROUND the bullet--even while it's in the bore.

The result is that some of the lead alloy is actually melted, and fused into the bore walls by the temperatures and pressure of the burning powder gas.

Cast bullets should NOT be pushed at velocities over 1100-1200 fps without gas checking. And, hard-cast bullets should be used in high-pressure applications, such as the .357, .44 mag or above.

Try buying some swaged bullets like the Hornady or Speer .38 bullets. Load them with a medium velocity powder like Unique or Herco, and try them out.
 
If that 686 is a new one, the problem may be in the gun itself and not the ammunition.

Lap the bore or run 1000 rounds of jacketed bullets down the tube.

I'm come to the conclusion Smith no longer finishes their barrels and just assumes the majority of them won't see anything but jacketed bullets.
 
Hal, I was wondering if I was the only one who got one like that.

I have a 686-3. The internal finish on the barrel was outstanding, and the gun shoots like a dream.

OTOH, I just purchased a 625-7. The bore looks REALLY rough, and it won't group worth a crap with my lead bulleted handloads. It will barely group within 3 inches at 25 yards with ball ammo, too.

But then, I know that SW revolvers can be picky. It took almost a year of experimentation with my M29 before I found a load that it liked. I use a 250 grain Keith type bullet, sized to .430 and lubed with Javelina Alox on top of 8.5 of Unique with Winchester or Federal primers. 6 rounds will go into an inch at 25 yards with this load.
 
Powderman
All my older Smiths run lead fine also.
OTOH
1 new 66
1 new 617
1 new 22s
2 extra barrels for the 22s
all needed several hundred rounds of jacketed or in the case of the 22's plated (Amercian Eagle/CCI) rounds before they would work with lead.
 
Here is another thing I ran into with a Ruger revolver. The front of the cylinder was a few thousants under the size of the bore diameter. The bullet would swedge down when fired and would not fill the bore diameter causing poor accuracy. Once swedged down lead or copper does not re-expand as some metals do. This was curred by reaming the very front of the cylinder, not the chamber, to where the bullet just had a slight drag when exiting the chamber. This allowed a tighter fit in the barrel bore and accuracy was much improved. From 4 inch groups with many flyers to 2 inch consistant groups at 25 yards. I suggest measuring the front of the cylinder with whatever bullet you are using by just trying to push bullet into front of cylinder. It should go in with just a slight drag. If it doesn't it might be to small and be swedging the bullet too small for good accuracy. S&W's usually don't need this but it wouldn't hurt to check. Bob
 
I have heard about that problem with the cylinders on Ruger revolvers. I never checked mine, but all but one are gone. I still have a .30 carbine Blackhawk I just bought, but my cast bullet reloads won't fit into the chambers. I have to seat them lower to make them work.
 
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