Polymer Handgun Frame Construction

Blue Jeans

Inactive
Getting new to polymer frames, but basically, as far as I can work out, a polymer frame has a metal block at the top of the frame which the slide rides on top of.
Wouldn't this mean that all of serious work is still done by metal on a polymer frame? If so, what up with all the fuss about polymer?
 
The slide rails are metal; slide rail to slide is metal to metal. Glocks and M&Ps have front and rear metal slide rails. Xdm has long single rail.
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Polymer allows the pistol to be lighter given its size than if it was made with steel or aluminum. Production is easier, too.
 
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Like most materials, polymer frames are trustworthy when used as they were designed.
But when things happen outside of what the engineers had thought of, like gross reloading errors, polymer probably isn't as strong or forgiving as other frames, like steel for example.
 
a polymer frame has a metal block at the top of the frame which the slide rides on top of.

You sound like you are describing the kind of pistol with a metal chassis, which some makers serialize. There are others (Glock being a prominent example) which embed the metal rails in the polymer frame, relying on the polymer to maintain the alignment of the rails. This sends some people into apoplexy.

Folks can gripe all they want, though; Glocks and similar designs have held up well in use.
 
Most polymer-framed guns have metal sub-frames (blocks of steel) imbedded in and connected to the polymer with various metal pins. The track record isn't that long, but there have been some polymer guns that have had multiple hundreds of thousands of rounds run through them and some have been in service for more than 30 years.

Some of the earliest polymer-framed guns might have been less robust than newer designs, but frames typically aren't the main concern when it comes to gun safety -- it's the slide, and how it connects to the frame (or the pieces inside the frame). With most polymer guns, that connection is all steel-on- or steel-to steel.

These guns aren't as fragile as some folks think or fear.

Will they last as long as steel or metal-framed guns? Hard to know, but most of them will likely last longer than the owner. I would note, too, that I didn't buy my guns to be family heirlooms.
 
I should make it clear that when I said "...what's up with all the fuss about polymer?" I was asking what's up with the fuss against polymer frames if metal does all of the work, anyway.

"You sound like you are describing the kind of pistol with a metal chassis, which some makers serialize."
I don't know if I am or not. I had I'm mind what Walt Sherrill said: "Most polymer-framed guns have metal sub-frames (blocks of steel) imbedded in and connected to the polymer with various metal pins."
Are these "sub-frames" metal rails or metal chassis? What is the difference between these rails and chassis?
 
The Glock pistol has metal rails that are imbedded into the polymer frame during the molding process. Meaning that they become a permanent part of the frame.

Some people worried that would not hold up with use... Those people have been proven wrong.

The locking block on a Glock is held in with pins... People thought that wouldn't hold up... and they were wrong, until 40sw came about, and then they were right. Adding another retaining pin spread out the stresses involved, and now there is no problem.

Other pistols, like the M&P and others, use metal inserts that have the slide rails and the locking block milled into them, and the insert also holds the fire control components. These may be as one piece inserts, or split fore and aft/left and right. They are held into the frame with pins, some people had the same concerns as before... they have been proven wrong.

Basically it boiled down to some people's concern that the polymer could not handle the stresses involved when a firearm discharges, and that the polymer would fatigue and fail. Basically break/crack, causing the firearm to be unusable or dangerous to continue using.

Time has proven that fear to be unfounded.


Other pistols, mainly the Sig 250 and 320, and the new Ruger American, have metal sub-frames. Similar to the metal inserts mentioned above located in the M&P and others, but different in that they are not held in with pins. They are designed to be removable as a unit. The fire control components and other parts all assembled in this subframe, allowing you to move the sub-frame into other larger frames/grips. So the same serialized sub-frame can be reconfigured into other types of pistols. A full size, or a sub compact, or anywhere in between.
 
Reinforcing pins ? you mean like cross bolts on a big bore rifle ?
Of course the fiberglass + resin inserted in a rifle also strengthens .
The "engineers " who thought you could put a .40S&W into a 9mm frame without reinforcement caused more than one maker to change their their design !!! :rolleyes:
 
Getting new to polymer frames, but basically, as far as I can work out, a polymer frame has a metal block at the top of the frame which the slide rides on top of.

It can. I know of exceptions.

The CZ-100 (CZ's first foray into polymer. It flopped.), and Ruger's polymer P-series autoloaders, both use molded in plastic rails.

Wouldn't this mean that all of serious work is still done by metal on a polymer frame? If so, what up with all the fuss about polymer?
 
Okay, as far as I can tell the FNX has individual, pinned in, replaceable rails. Can't find anything on the H&Ks.
Do these rails, molded in, pinned in, or otherwise, provide structural support? I'm already assuming metal sub-frames do?
 
The CZ-100 (CZ's first foray into polymer. It flopped.), and Ruger's polymer P-series autoloaders, both use molded in plastic rails.

I've owned both. The CZ-100 was a dog in terms of the trigger, but otherwise a good design. Had CZ done something to make it easier to shoot well (like using the basic CZ-75 fire control assembly rather than a striker that wasn't pre-tensioned by slide movement), it might still be around today. The CZ-100 felt much better in the hand than the Glock 17. The newer P-07 is a fine weapon, and far better than most realize -- like most CZs, it takes a while for people to discover their good attributes.

The P95 I owned was a pretty good gun, but I was lured away by more glamorous brands -- none of which I kept.

I agree that both designs failed, but not because of polymer rails.

Some newer polymer guns designs have integrated the metal sub-frame and the rails into interlocking assemblies (or a single unit), so that the gun, when the breech is locked, it becomes a pretty rigid mechanism, comparable to steel-framed guns. Any flexing that occurs, does so long after the bullet has left the barrel (which happens quickly with only minimal slide movement.)

Just go to the gun maker's website and download the user manuals. Many of the manual will have an "exploded" parts diagram that shows the gun's parts and design.
 
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TailGator wins the Massive Understatement Award!

I will take that as a compliment, whether or not it was intended as such. :D

Are these "sub-frames" metal rails or metal chassis? What is the difference between these rails and chassis?

marine6680 explained it well. The part that I referred to as a "chassis" is better termed a sub-frame. I was trying to use more colloquial language to make it more understandable, but I was unsuccessful, as often happens when a speaker or writer wanders away from precise terminology.
 
Sub frames can have the serial number on them, not the grip portion, making the gun much more convertible to different frame length and grip sizes. SIG makes one like that which converts to varying combinations of long slide hi cap to short slide short mag near pocket gun. One serial number, two or three slides and grips, different magazines, etc.

Why polymer? Costs. A single steel or aluminum alloy frame has to be formed by forging or rolling billet, then machined to final dimensions with it's unique serial number. A polymer lower is hot molded in a die with it's unique serial number put on the sub frame or integrated metal panel. The much smaller and less expensive metal bits in the polymer framed version aren't expensive, and the polymer itself is literally pennies in material costs. The cost of the die is much more but properly used it can make thousands if not tens of thousands of them which averages that cost down to literal dollars - and not many.

Polymer is a lot less expensive - case in point, how much for an LCP these days? $200 - Ruger dropped the price significantly. Part because the molds were paid for, part because of competition against guns at their previous street price of $275-300. The other makers aren't taking the battle to them. Yet.

Compare that to the Glock 19 which is still pretty close to what it was 20 years ago - meaning Glock has been slowly dropping the price, not raising it. The HK P7 went from $800 to $1400, the Glock 19, not at all.

So, if a LCP only retails for $200 now, how much does that frame really cost? A few bucks for the stamped formed metal bits, pennies for the FRN hot molded into the die, and the cost of the die for it's individual use. I will go out on a limb and say that most of the lower polymer frames "cost" less than $20. But we still have to add back overhead, initial design, etc. A steel or alloy frame would go 2-3X that. The price difference between metal and polymer frames on the market seems to top out at about $200 for the privilege of metal and it's costly manufacture and machining. A SIG P238 seems to have a $550 retail, the Kahr CW380 about $350. Rough apples and oranges comparison.

The Glock Blue price tho? $350. Hmm. I'd suggest if they wanted to turn the screws on the price they could volume bid it under a massive contract as low as $275. About the same as what the LCP sold for initially.

You can see the same difference in the M4 contract bid price when the base gun bids for $650 to the .Gov with KAC rail another $250. About what they sell for now. Two years ago, it was $1200 but Colt has a lot of cash flow issues and so they are doing the same as Ruger, selling lower to improve volume.

Polymer can really improve the bottom line with a much higher markup and still net a highly competitive price against alloy. As far as performance alloy and polymer are both on the same footing - either will crack under extensive shooting. In that light they are somewhat limited in lifespan but the lower cost means the few that do break will be covered when replaced. The overall cost of the fleet works better and that is what taxpayers demand.

Can polymer stand up, sure. Examples: first, a lot of modern V8 engines use polymer intake manifolds. Of course that's a static no moving parts component. Ok - small engines are moving to polymer carburetors, and they have been using polymer camshafts which endure a lot more stress and wear. No issues yet. I had one and when it broke it was a metal valve that failed.

As for shooting them the polymer guns are noted for being a bit more forgiving in recoil - either because the designers were forced to slow down the hammering, or because they are a bit more squishy compared to rigid metal. I give the latter more significance but both could be in play. In long term shooting a rental range in Vegas notes the metal slide cracks FIRST, not the polymer frame. Some Ruger LCP owners note their guns crack at the extreme rear of the frame near a pin hole first. LCP's aren't known for soft recoil. YMMV.

I choose polymer for deep conceal and summer wear as its definitely getting more humidity and exposed to corrosion more frequently. I have a compact alloy gun for belt wear. Planning a trip to the beach? Polymer. Extreme use outdoors over a long period of time with limited maintenance, like the Army's new pistol? I don't see alloy being the better choice, but it's a political dog and pony show in terms of arms acquisitions. Pistols aren't a major combat weapon, those assigned them get M4's in the box. Pistols are green zone off duty wear. Still yet the Army has to come up with a decision, who saw the M9 coming?
 
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Blue, I just noticed how many times you have posted here.

Welcome to The Firing Line. You are off to a good start with interesting questions, and have got a few long-timers making replies.

Bart Noir
 
tirod, nice response there.

I'd like to add that another benefit of the use of polymer frames is that they can be a little thinner than metal-with-grips attached designs.

And they can be molded into very nice shapes to fit the hand like they grew there. Well, some more than others. We could, and probably will, have a whole other thread concerning which polymer gun fits the hand best. That is very subjective and for every 5 shooters there will 7 or more choices :D

That molding is much easier, and as you said, cheaper than the careful metal cutting and grip design needed to make a traditional metal framed pistol feel as good.

Bart Noir
 
Wouldn't this mean that all of serious work is still done by metal on a polymer frame?
There's no real "serious work" done by the frame of a handgun. For the most part what it does is hold all the other parts in place. The serious work is done by the barrel and slide. The frame, be it steel, polymer or aluminum, is not stressed significantly in most current handgun designs.

While some handguns with polymer grip frames incorporate a steel subframe/receiver that fits inside the polymer frame and handles the actual interface to the slide, most have metal slide rails molded into the polymer frame. A few interface plastic frames directly to the slide without the use of metal rails, but I don't think there are any guns with that design in current production.

Regardless of how the manufacturer chooses to implement a specific solution, what makes the difference in durability and serviceability has proven to be the dedication of the manufacturer to creating a durable and serviceable product. Not the particular material that the manufacturer chose to use.
 
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