Political Correctness?

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JerryM

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Coinneach,
I question whether your words and actions are consistent. I have stated that it is Rich's right to permit or not permit anything on this board he desires. However, I do notice that it is OK to express approval or tolerance of gays, but when a dissenting voice is heard you shut it down. If that isn't PC what would be your term? Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
I guess that it's okay to express positive opinions toward folks of any group, if it suits one. Few are ever offended by friendliness, I've noticed.

This site is not intended for disapproval of any group other than those specifically identified as being against the RKBA. Anybody who disapproves of any group, or individual members thereof, can find many other forums on the WWW to voice those opinions.

Any person, regardless of group, who approves of the RKBA is welcome here. They should be judged solely by the quality of their posts.

My own personal opinion is that Coinneach's views have far more to do with courtesy and politeness than with any PC. It is his duty as a moderator to shut down fools who come here with malice in their hearts.

As always, Art
 
Art,
It depends on what you are friendly to. There are many of us that are offended by approval of the gay lifestyle. I am willing not to initiate such a discussion, but I am not willing to ignore the approval or statements of tolerance that are often stated when the subject comes up. If moderators don't want members to be offended then shut down the first mention of it. Don't let the approvers have their say and then prohibit the objectors statements. Regards, Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
I'll let Coinneach speak for himself on this topic; but I would like to emphasize what Art has already said, and said as well as I have ever heard it: "...it's okay to express positive opinions toward folks of any group,...Few are ever offended by friendliness..."

All members are cordially invited to "take it to email" if you don't like someones: religion, creed, national origin, sex, politics, associations or personal hygiene.

Gal. 5:14

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
Jerry - let me give my 1/2 cents worth. I believe you are mistaking or rather equating tolerance with "approval". It is tolerance of others opinions, race, creed and life style that we try to convey on TFL. Does that mean that we approve of a particular life style, probably not all of them, but it is left to the individual to make that decision. Each person has their own degree of approval or disapproval of what others do with their lives. Likewise it is intolerance that we try to disallow on TFL. Intolerance leads to hate, hate leads to ... well, just pick up a newspaper any day of the week. It's an unfortunate quirk of the English language that stating disapproval tends to come out sounding like intolerance but the converse is not necessarilly true. Showing tolerance usually involves something as simple as saying nothing at all.

Are we perfect in administering this "policy"? No, we're not. But we try to be fair.
 
As a long-time lurker and now participant here at TFL, I would like to congratulate everyone involved, specifically for adhering to the rules concerning civility. It was not easy for me as a new member to actually reply to a post or, heaven forbid, create a new thread. Perhaps others out there felt the same way. What made me comfortable enough to participate was that it was very clear that there were standards for expressing ones opinion and that character/lifestyle assasination would not be tolerated by the moderators or the members.

Tolerance and approval ARE two different things, and civility and kindness CAN help change minds. Try to remember the last time someone got you to change your opinion by being condemnatory. (BTW, Oleg Volk expresses this idea with much more eloquence in a related thread directed to the moderators.)

LD
 
I agree that tolerance and approval aren't the same. However, when the subject is raised and some post something like: "I think gays should be allowed to marry." Or "It is a genetic thing so we should not criticise." Or "It isn't anyones business." Or "So and so is a bigot because he criticizes gays." I must express disagreement with statements such as these. I have not attacked anyone personally on these issues or engaged in name calling. I don't have a desire to offend. However, if and when this and issues such as abortion are raised someone is going to be offended. When the policy is not to offend the gays or pro abortionists, but don't worry about offending the Christians or anyone who disagrees with the gay lifestyle that is what PC is all about. Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
I may or may not support gay rights. I may or may not like Christianity. I may or may not appreciate blondes.

What I definitely will not do is offend people whose appearance, religion or lifestyle fall into those categories while I am on TFL because of the damage that would do to our cause. I invite you to stand with me and to concentrate on the matters that are more directly related to RKBA.

Be assured that anyone bashing Christians or conservatives would have a similar pressure to cease and desist applied to them.
 
Since when is a discussion of of gay rights considered an on-spot topic for TFL?

The way I've read it, and I may be wrong, is that everything should maintain a firearms related bent.

Jerry, you're not Jerry Fallwell by chance, are you?

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
No, I am not Jerry Falwell, but what is wrong with Jerry Falwell? When we discuss politics I consider it unrealistic to mention nothing but firearms or RKBA. There are many important issues that are "up for grabs" in the upcoming elections. When we discuss Republicans vs Libertarians we immediately face the moral issues even if both candidates are the same re RKBA. Look over the recent posts in this and the Legal and Political forums and tell me that firearms is the only subject discussed. I admit that firearms, and related subjects, is the reason that we are here, but when you are with a group of fellow shooters do you only discuss firearms? As soon as someone says __ for president we make judgements about that individual including his moral character. That is a legitimate area of interest for the next president. I would just say that if you don't want to discuss the gay or abortion issue it can be reduced by not initiating the subject. It is inevitable that it be brought up sometimes when discussing political parties and candidates. When it is then the pros and cons come up. I would also add that until the moral climate of this nation is upgraded that the violence that is causing us RKBA problem will not decline. I think Jerry Falwell has done some good things for this nation.
Art, did you really mean that we could speak positively for any group that isn't against RKBA? I don't think the KKK is against RKBA. I sure don't have anything good to say about the KKK, but what if someone did? Would that be acceptable or would the fact that many, including you, would be offended be grounds for closing the thread? Regards, Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

[This message has been edited by JerryM (edited July 29, 2000).]
 
Politicly Correct: "polit'ically correct' marked by or adhering to a typically progressive orthodoxy on issues involving esp. race, gender, sexual affinity, or ecology. Abbr.: PC, P.C." source: http://www.infoplease.com

There are alot of topics not related to RKBA in General Discussion. Most are accepted while some topics are not tolerated. Doesn't matter if its censorship or political correctness homosexuality and gay unions is a forbidden topic that I will never participate in again on TFL.

JerryM is right when he said "Don't let the approvers have their say and then prohibit the objectors statements."

Shok

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"In 1789, when used without any qualifying adjective, 'the militia' referred to all citizens capable of bearing arms."
Akhil Reed Amar, Yale University
 
There are a lot more issues involved with choosing a president than just RKBA. If the canidate supports RKBA but is also pro-abortion, I will not vote for him. As much as I believe that RKBA is one of the most important issues, there are other issues concerning me being a Christian that I rank higher. I think that here on TFL that both sides should be allowed to have their say, this doesn't mean that it should turn into a flame war, just me being allowed to express my disapproval when someone express their approval and vice versa is enough for me. If anyone turns their opinion into a direct flame, then that member should be censored, but as long as the discussion is in an adult manner, there should be no censorship. Disscusion stimulates growth, ignoring a subject just makes you become stagnant.

[This message has been edited by striker3 (edited July 29, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JerryM:
I don't think the KKK is against RKBA.
[/quote]

Though you brought this up as an example only, I'd like to note that KKK is against RKBA. They are very much against all sorts of minorities having arms of any kind. We have KKK supporters to thank for numerous Jim Crow guncontrol measures and the mess we are still unraveling stems from that, in part.

Really, how likely would it be for the Klan to support an M249 in every negro home?

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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
I'm not advocating running around saying nice things about anybody. I'm thinking of Grammaw's "If you can't say something good about somebody, don't say anything."

There is a difference between noting in passing that one objects to a candidate's views on abortion, vs. getting into a discussion of abortion. Or Gay Rights, Environment, WTO, Giant Corporations, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

There's quite a few behaviors and many groups in our society which just really aggravate me. That's my personal problem, and I don't need to impose that problem on TFLers. All I care about, here on this Site, is that folks generally focus on guns and RKBA. Generally, sez me, not exclusively.

So, if I stick to Rich's "High Road", I don't have to worry about offending women and children and those who have done me no harm.

Sexist jokes, of course, are another matter entirely.

:), Art
 
Art,
I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. There are issues that need to be addressed from time to time that require things that one might not believe to be nice. I bet you wouldn't agree that you should only say nice things about Clinton, Gore or Schumer. It is never pleasant to have to confront others on issues such as we are talking about. Realize that Biblical love, agape, demands that sin be confronted. I never let my children play in the street even though they might cry if I refused. I love them too much to let them harm themselves if I can help it. As a soldier I always believed it wasn't doing anyone a favor to let them get by with something that would likely get them and others killed if it came to combat. And I don't think I am being nice to others to ignore that which will cause them everlasting punishment. I don't think it is proper for me to ignore the desperate plight of my nation's moral problems. Accordingly, I will always speak up as I believe appropriate regarding these and other issues, especially the moral ones. I am prepared to accept the consequences of that course of action. I hope I can do it without undue abrasiveness. I never mean anything to be personal against an individual, and I don't take even the flame personally. Best, Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
TFL offers a cornucopia of discussion to its members. Yet, like TV, not everything here will be to everyone's taste.
There are areas of TFL that I seldom or never visit, simply because they concern subjects that hold little interest to me. Occasionally, I may encounter a thread that I personally find offensive or disturbing. If I'm not in a confrontational mood or my blood pressure is already high enough, I'll do what I do when I encounter TV programming I don't care for. I'll change the channel or I'll turn the set off.
 
Hey, JerryM, I'm not expecting perfection, anywhere. I've been known to wonder why anti-gun types had such failures in their pre-frontal lobotomies, and I'm willing to contribute to a fund for home-visits to them from Dr. Kevorkian...

As I said, I may note in passing my antipathy for somebody's views on some subject, but it seems pointless to get into unending discussions of non-gun stuff. Most folks' minds are already made up on a lot of stuff; far be it from me to try to change them. (This of course is separate from the issue of errors of fact. If I have an opinion due to wrong info, I definitely want to be corrected!)

No le hace, Art
 
JerryM
You're right on the mark. Don't mean to to interrupt, just wanted to let you know you're far from alone out there.

"If you stand for nothing you'll stand for anything." - unknown (at least by me at this time)

RKBA!
 
JerryM,

I only asked because isn't Jerry Falwell's full name Jerry Michael Falwell?

Beats the hell out of me, I have about as much time for him as I have for Rush Limbaugh, which is ZERO.


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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
All,
Those who try to use TFL as a springboard to further their struggles
for or against homosexuality, abortion, or religion must do so
elsewhere.

The mere mention of tolerance for such a subject is not advocating such a
lifestyle. If they try to discuss “positive aspects” of those subjects they will
be stopped as quickly as those who try to discuss “negative” aspects of those
subjects.

A comment such as, “I don’t care what his views on abortion are” does not
warrant a response on TFL. If you must convince the speaker that he is an
immoral murderer doomed and damned, do so somewhere else. We are
trying to unite a RKBA movement here not change each other’s religion.

With the exception of the Staff, nobody “must” show their disapproval or
disagreement on ANY subject on TFL. As a matter of fact, with the exception
of the Staff, nobody “must” even read anything on TFL. If, for personal
reasons, you believe you “must” declare the TFL member to be a (insert
insult) for not sharing your views, do so by e-mail. If his/her e-mail is not
listed, ask them to e-mail you for enlightenment and correction. If they
refuse to e-mail you, suffer as we must from time to time - but do it OFF TFL.

You agreed to this when you joined. Ref Forum Policy #3:
“If you have a problem with a Member's religion, creed, national origin, sex,
politics, associations or personal hygiene, take it to email.”

Who makes the decisions? The members of the Staff. You agreed to this
when you joined. Ref Forum Policy #4:
“As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the
right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to
revoke Membership. No Second Chances; No Argument; No Trial; No Way. At
best you will receive one warning.”

I fully realize TFL is not for everyone. If your priorities are elsewhere, then
elsewhere is where you should be. Frankly, I hope our views on subjects
UNrelated to RKBA do not divide us. We must unite to regain our freedom so
we may once again have some powerful input to our government and bring
about the changes we desire.

If the Second Amendment falls, the Bill of Rights will collapse and
Constitutional Law will be on the same level as Bill Clinton arguing the
definition of “is”.

TFL is dedicated to the preservation of responsible gun ownership. I hope
and pray members are smart enough and tolerant enough to save our
Republic. Otherwise, quite frankly, we will have no influence on ANY subject
- and that includes homosexuality, abortion, and religion.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
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