Polishing the chamber

4

40CalGuy

New member
I have a Nagant that while it is very accurate, and I like it because it's cheap to shoot, it has the classic Nagant sticky bolt problem. I took it to a gunsmith, and he said to polish the chamber. I took a flashlight to it, and saw some light rusting in the chamber, where the cartridge necks down, and by looking at the cases of the spent rounds, the finish on this area of the case confirms this area to be the problem. I have to use my smithing hammer to knock the bolt open to extract the case. I know that I can get brass cased stuff, and that brass may well solve the problem alltogether, but that's not why I bought the gun. I want to keep the rounds cheap, which to me means milsurp ammo at $3.00/20. Most of that is going to be steel cased. Click, boom, casing expands...cant get the bolt open. What do you recommend that I do to solve the chamber issue? Obviously, I don't want to go too abrasive and ruin the chamber. I just want to clean out that are and make it nice and smooth so that I can shoot the cheap stuff. This problem persists with every type of ammo I have locally available to me, all of which is steel cased.

Another issue with the gun...feeding from the magazine is spotty at best. Most of the problem is that sometimes when I move the bolt forward in the receiver, the round will nose down. Sometimes, the rear of the casing will get stuck on it's way up into the chamber. It will stick on the rear 1/2 of the casing, between the bolt guides and the magazine. I have to tap the round downward into the magazine, then continue to move the bolt farward to chamber the round. It will not do this everytime, but does do it with every round type that I have tried so far.
 
couple of things for you

I use a piece of spring stock with some crocus cloth or 300 grit wet dry paper taped to it and rolled up and then spin it with my Foredom tool. A dremel will work just as easily, just make sure the piece of spring stock is plenty long enough to enter the receiver from the rear and still get to the far end of the chamber. I add some oil to the cloth or sandpaper and spin at a fairly decent speed and work it back and forth without concetrating on any one spot. Do this a few times with 300 grit and then you should spray out the chamber with compressed air first and then follow that with brake cleaner to make sure you get all of the grit out. Check it with the light and see if you have all of the rust removed, if not repeat the process with 300 grit one more time and then polish it out with 400 wet or dry and some oil to make sure you remove any scratches left over from the 300 grit and make sure you have all of the rust removed.

The feeding problem should be cured by replacing the follower spring. Tennessee Gun Parts should be able to replace it for you at a decent cost. Best of luck with it.
 
I had come up with several solutions, but then it occred to me that the simplest and safest solution is to sell your Nagant and buy another one. Try J&G Sales, as they usually have some at good prices and I have had good luck with them, also try AIM Surplus. The chances are that any "home" solution will oversize your chamber or upset your head space, or both. These are very bad things!

Good Luck
 
possible solution

What about metal polish and a 3M scotch scrubbie (green scrub pad) wrapped around tubing, attached to a dremel? Aminyard, I am almost to that point. However, I may give the whole thing a go with brass ammo as a last ditch. I like the gun, and managed to get one that externally looks wonderful after I stripped the stock and polished the brass accents and all. Perhaps I will keep it as a non-functioning decoration. Well...not that it doesn't function...as long as you only need 1 shot, lol.
 
Chamber Polish

I polish my chambers with Flitz or JB (not JB Weld, that makes a mess). I take a brass bore brush that is under sized then wrap it with heavy paper towels cut to fit the brush. Load the paper towel up with your polish and using an old rod section I have at it. You have to change the towel a couple of times but it gets the job done and takes out minimal metal. Flush the entire thing when done. You might try Moly paste to help on extraction. I've never needed to but it might help.
 
more info for you

What I posted about isn't a home remedy, but the way we were taught to polish any chamber. You might remove a half to 1 thousandth, but you shouldn't remove more than that and unless the chamber is out of spec right now, you should be fine, but a headspace check should be in order.
 
try this old method.

take an old cleaning rod, put brass brush one size lager then bore size.
chuck this is vaiable speed drill

wet the brush liberally with hopps nine solvent,

run the drill at a slow speed to start off, then run several patches thru it

next run drill slightly faster and repeat until you are running drill as far as it will go. last run patch until dry and then inspect. if its still sticking , replace the weapon
 
If you wan't to save this chamber (and you do, if the gun is accurate), the first thing I would do is get rid of the rust so it can't keep working on the surface texture of the chamber. There is a new class of non-acidic biodegradable rust removers that work by chelating the iron oxide. Unlike Naval Jelly or other such treatments, they don't activate the surface. Evaporust is one brand and Rust Release is another. I removed rust from some screwdriver bits with the latter product and got no afterrust at all. The inventors won a "best new product of the year" award. Look through automotive supply sites and you can buy as little as one quart of the Evaporust brand for under $10. It is reusable and will be useful to you elsewhere.

To use this stuff, plug the muzzle, put her nose down and fill her up. It usually takes about 1/2 an hour, I find. Check periodically with a flashlight into the chamber for progress. You can leave the stuff overnight if necessary. Return the solution to the stock container or to a new container when your are done. When it finally wears out, it is safe to flush the stuff down a drain.

Once the rust is gone you can follow Countryboy's instructions. The only suggestiong I saw that I would avoid is letting moly get into the chamber. Varmint Al's web sit be has a pretty convincing presentation showing that simply polishing a chamber, even to a mirror finish or even adding some petroleum lubes won't increase bolt thrust significantly. However, once you get into the high pressure lubes like moly, you will likely see an increase of 25% or so force on the bolt lugs (based on Al's modeled coefficient of friction numbers). Moly produces CF of about 0.02.

One additional thought: I've never fired a large quantity of steel cased ammo through my guns. I hear reports of the corrosion resistant varnish building up in guns. This would soften with heat and make a good glue if you had enough of it. I might be tempted to take a bore mop dipped in liquid paint stripper into the chamber, being careful not to let it get on the wood finish or anything non-metalic in the vicinity. Partially burned varnish might also resemble rust, so give this a shot if you haven't already taken care of it?

Nick
 
Cntryboy

I did not mean that your method was a home remedy, but to UNCKENICK it would be. Things that can be safely done by an experianced smith may be a problem for the home craftsman. Since these rifles are available for <$70 I think it would be best to simply replace it.
 
do what?

Let me first say to you that I have been smithing for 8 years now. My way of doing it isn't a home remedy to anyone that knows anything about gunsmithing. Thanks for the attempt to smooth things over, it really wasn't necessary, but you might ought to think before you speak!!!!!

This is the way I was taught to do it and I know of several others that would tackle it the exact same way. The rust is what he would be after, not the chamber itself. My way might cost him $10, your way is to just throw the rifle away and start over with a barrel that will most likely be in about the same shape since hundreds of thousands of these rifles were boxed up after the war without much attention being paid to them to make sure the corrosive ammo was cleaned out. Now, you can add that up to be a few dollars versus buying a new rifle and make a decision. Any advice I give out is intended to solve a problem with the least expensive way. One thing about pouring rust remover down into a barrel is there is a good chance it will get on the rest of the gun. If that happens, it can cause bad spots to be left on the blueing. Now, add that to the cost of the repair, and tell me whose way makes more since now.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat and my way doesn't do any damage to the chamber and solves the sticky bolt problem as well and only cost what ever you spent on the spring stock, oil and paper to do the job plus your labor. The best part of all is that you didn't have to drive to a smith and leave the gun nor did you have to buy a new one.

Might ought to be careful about who you try not to be condescending to, simply because you really have no clue about what you were trying to tell me afterall did you.

I can't recall saying anything about the use of Moly with my fix.
 
rust in chamber

UNKLENICK and CNTRYBOY 1289:
Guys, I don't see to much difference in your approach - both you guys want to "get rid of the rust." Whether you uase UNKLENICK's stuff or just polish like CNTRYBOY1289's method it does the same thing!
I don't think either one of you is criticising the other - both of you just want to help!

Just tjink, - I've been smithing 50 years and I still don't know anything!!!:) :D :D

Harry B.

P.S. - May events coalesce to your benefit with that old Nagant!!
 
LOL, I agree with you Harry

I think Nick and I are both on the same track. I just didn't like being told Nick would consider my way a home remedy by Aminyard. I think Nick actually said there would be nothing wrong with doing it the way I suggested as well.

Nick brought a question about using Moly which I didn't bring up and wanted to clarify that. I went back and read what Nick was talking about and on that, he and I agree, simply don't do it. You can end up with headspace issues when you don't actually have them to begin with using the grease.

No hard feelings on my end. I just wanted everyone to know that anything I suggest doing is a suggestion that I have not only done a few times myself, but is the best way that I have found to save money when a fix is needed.

Anyone that gives out advise that to replace the gun instead of fixing it is the best way to fix one is either not mechanically inclined or has more money than he needs to begin with. I grew up poor and I guess am still poor so I fix what is ailing me. Nothing wrong with your way or my way, but my way gets the job done and makes it shoot just as good as the new gun wil plus I have more moeny to buy ammo so I get to shoot mine longer. I'll leave it up to everyone to choose the best way for themself.
 
There is a good description here http://www.bio-pro.de/en/life/magazin/01491/
of what unclenick is offering as rust removal solution, which should not cause any problems like ordinary rust removers with the blueing ( it will if spilled remove some bluing as this is a rusting process unlike chemical blacking).
So Basically I second Unclenick and countryboys solutions, I use up to 800 grade paper and oil to get a good finish and minimise metal removal. Certainly beats going for another rifle for what is a easily fixed problem, as with anything go slowly get it right first time and you will have a useful rifle.
 
Easy solution, that's worked for me...Get a "bore mop" that fits tightly in chamber (I think a .410 shotgun would work)...Apply some automotive rubbing compound, chuck the cleaning rod in a drill and go to it.. You'd be hard pressed to remove any signicant amount of metal, but will remove rust, etc. Then flush with Carb cleaner (and some patches) to remove any leftover compound.
 
Lol

Aminyard, if you knew enough about this discussion, I would gladly tell you that what I have been talking about is taught by most gunsmithing schools as a way of polishing the chamber. It won't make a chamber unsafe unless you use 80 grit paper and hog out a bunch of steel. Since you don't know enough about it, I won't get hot and bothered and just tell you that before you try to tell off someone, you might ought to be a lot more qualified than you seem to be since most everyone that replied to this post all agree that to simply throw away a rifle that has some rust would be ridiculous thing to do.

Now for you, buying a new one sounds like the safest thing for you to do, except none of these rifles are going to be new. Yes, some will be in better shape than others, but the new wore off more than 60 years ago on most of these rifles. With that being said, if there was ever a disposable rifle on the market, this one may qualify for that role. Especially for someone that has no knowledge about rifles to begin with like yourself.

Now to the other part of this discussion between you and myself. Since your advise is to buy a new one becasuse you are worried about safety, why not go busy yourself with a different forum since this one is concerned with gunsmithing. Gunsmithing is working on a gun and not just simply replacing it because you might be scared of working on a gun. If we all did that, there would be no need for gunsmiths like myself and Uncle Nick and Harry now would there?

I don't give out bad information. This is one that I would rate as a third grade job on a scale of 1st through 12th grade. Not a job that should get anyone into a safety issue with the chamber if they follow what I said. If that scares you off, then so be it. I offer advise on a case by case basis. If the person doesn't seem to be able to handle the advise that I give out, I just keep quite, so that is what I am going to do with you.
 
40CALguy,

I am still curious to learn whether a varnish build-up is a possible contributor?


Aminyard,

I haven't bought one of the Nagents, but I have bought Mausers at different times when they were in the sub-$100 range, and was impressed (or more like distressed) by the range of conditions they came in. Barrels were anywhere from good to having no rifling left in the first inch behind the muzzle. Actions could be anywhere from true to having heat distortion (I had a '98 action with 0.003" depth difference from one inside corner of the rear ring channel to the other). Bolts could have anything from evenly mating lugs to being mismatched so badly that they rode entirely on one lug too high to be safely lapped-in.

I am assuming the situation with the Nagents is similar? So for all the above reasons, I think it is worth trying to save a gun that shoots well. Based on the Mauser experience, replacing it might easily land you with one that never will. For that reason, because it shoots, it should be thought of as worth more than $70.

Safety comes first, of course, but unless the case sticking is due to over-pressure, I don't believe there is a safety issue here? To restate Countryboy's comment, it is pretty difficult to remove a significant amount of material with fine lapping compound. If you've ever hand-lapped a barrel, slugging as you go, you will appreciate that removing even a couple of ten thousandths using 320 grit compound requires some serious elbow grease. Increase the surface area to that of a chamber, and without a hard lap or stone hones it is hard work to cause critical dimensional damage.


Countryboy and Harry,

I got a little more experience with the chelating rust remover over the last couple of days. I have two sets of Garand parts I had stripped the Parkerizing off of about two months ago for refinishing. (That was before the wife’s demand that I earn some money got in the way of the project.) They had picked up surface rust in the interim, and I wanted to remove it before bead blasting so it wouldn’t contaminate my beads. Also, I had some scale on the rear sight bases from having annealed them for tightening to the rear sight racks. All this stuff went into the rust remover.

The scale on the sight bases came loose, but did not dissolve, a good sign that bluing won’t be affected, but I haven’t directly tried that yet. The surfaces of the heat treated steel darkened and the rust vanished quite promptly. This stuff removes rust from hard parts without causing hydrogen embrittlement, so it is very promising with heat treated steel. Soft parts (butt plate, for example) remained bright. I don’t know what that’s about; it may be alloy specific? The instructions have you rinse the part, then dip it in the remover again and let it dry on the surface as a rust protectant. This darkened the receivers and bolts as it dried, apparently converting freshly forming surface rust on the fly. The butt plate stayed bright except for the slightly yellow color of the rust remover film; again, no explanation.

A day later I see a few rust colored streaks, so the rust protectant aspect of the dried product may not work as well as claimed. It may prove better to rinse and then either boil rinsed parts in hot water to flash-dry (this forms a micro-blued oxide layer), or to drop rinsed parts into a water displacing oil. I did not want to do the latter before refinishing. I will be blasting these off tomorrow when I’ve got the Park’ tank warmed up. Curious stuff, but I can recommend it as safer and less damaging than Naval Jelly and other acid-based neutralizers.

I originally suggested whacking the Nagent’s chamber rust independently of cleaning up the chamber surface to make the latter job easier and to be sure to neutralize any rust that was more than skin deep. I knew from experimenting with the remover on some rusty screwdriver bits and an allen wrench that it would turn most of the rust into a loose black powder. I now think that it will make it easier to identify pits without a bore scope because it turns them into black patches that stand out on the surface of the treated part. The polishing will lend further contrast to the view. The presence of a dark spot after completing polishing would then indicate the gun needs the barrel setback and re-reamed to remove enough material to really clean it up.

Of course, the separate rust removing step could turn out to be make-work, too, if the chamber cleans up directly and completely. It just depends how deep the rust goes?

Nick
 
polishing chamber

Nick:
I'm going to get some of that stuff - could you tell me what brand and where to get is?
Thanks guys Harry B.;)
 
Harry,

The brand I got is Rust Release. I got it at www.rustrelease.com. They have a deal where they send you a "free" gallon for $19 S&H. That sounded like a lot of S&H, but the Evaporust brand starts at over $20/gallon before S&H, so it isn't a bad deal after all. The fact that it's non-hazardous is attractive, too. Between that and Slip 2000's gas cylinder carbon cleaner, which works far better than the harshest hydrocarbon carburetor cleaning dip the auto parts places carry, I am beginning to become a real believer in some of these new water-based chemistries.

Nick
 
sounds good Nick

I will have to give them a try myself. I have a project that needs addressing and this may be the ticket to keep from causing hydrogen embrittlement. What I have seen so far suggests that you can reuse the product over and over for a good while which makes spending the $20 a much better proposition.

I have some 2x4 steel that needs to be derusted on the inside and outside and was trying to figure out the best way to do without causing problems down the road with the embrittlement cause I need to do a good bit of welding on them.

I have been thinking about trying the Slip myself. What kind of price comparison does it have to brake cleaner Nick? I have been checking out the web site but just never bothered to click on the price.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top