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Police Dept:Should Issue or Let Pick
- Thread starter EdInk
- Start date
I have to buy my own, which gives me lots of freedom to choose but also creates a situation where there is no consistancy in what's being carried either in a given area or even a given dept. For example, the local Sheriff's Office issues Glock 21's to full time deputys that want them but they can provide their own weapon if approved. So, you see deputys armed with Glock 21's, 1911's, Beretta 92's and PX4's, Rugers, 9mm's, .40's, .45's, even the occassional .357mag. The local PD's are all so small that all of their officers provide their own weapons, so again, you have a wide array of guns and calibers. The only depts you see in this area that are all armed the same are the state agencies - Troopers, Game Warden's, Marine Patrol. But even they each issue a different weapon and caliber.
Sooooo.... As an officer, I like the freedom to pick and choose. From the departmental management perspective, one gun and caliber for everyone, or very tight approval lists, make sense for consistency and commonality. IMO, if the dept is large enough and can afford to provide weapons, it makes sense for them to do so. For small depts in rural areas, finances often dictate a more creative approach and officers providing their own guns is much easier to handle, as in my case. I provide my weapons, they reimburse me for duty and training ammo.
Sooooo.... As an officer, I like the freedom to pick and choose. From the departmental management perspective, one gun and caliber for everyone, or very tight approval lists, make sense for consistency and commonality. IMO, if the dept is large enough and can afford to provide weapons, it makes sense for them to do so. For small depts in rural areas, finances often dictate a more creative approach and officers providing their own guns is much easier to handle, as in my case. I provide my weapons, they reimburse me for duty and training ammo.
Christchild
New member
I'd say, at MINIMUM, let the Officers choose. Then if the Officers didn't see the HG they'd like, I think they should be given the option to mention what they'd like (within reason, of course), and as long as their Weapon of Choice IS within reason (who really needs a .500 magnum?), it should be paid for by the GOVERNMENT and delivered to the Officers... Promptly.
Reading WC145's post, above, assuming he's an LEO... Aren't the Officers allowed to claim their weapons on their taxes, if they buy them themselves??? Afterall, that IS for work...
Reading WC145's post, above, assuming he's an LEO... Aren't the Officers allowed to claim their weapons on their taxes, if they buy them themselves??? Afterall, that IS for work...
I was allowed to choose any service revolver that I wanted. As long as it was blue steel, with a 4" bbl, and non adjustable sights, in .38 spl, and it was made by S&W or Colt. Other than that I could have anything I wanted...lol.
When we transitioned to Semi-auto pistols we had a wide lattitude to choose any glock 19 we wanted, or for some die hards.. a DAO S&W pistol, and if you had the cash.. a DAO sig.
Although I must admit... when women went on patrol they were allowed a 3" Model 36 5 shot with a heavy BBl, and squair butt. And even later on they really let their hair down and allowed stainless steel smiths and rugers. Model 64's, and service sixes. In 4" or 3" bbl round or squair butt's.
Of course I had to have one of each.
When we transitioned to Semi-auto pistols we had a wide lattitude to choose any glock 19 we wanted, or for some die hards.. a DAO S&W pistol, and if you had the cash.. a DAO sig.
Although I must admit... when women went on patrol they were allowed a 3" Model 36 5 shot with a heavy BBl, and squair butt. And even later on they really let their hair down and allowed stainless steel smiths and rugers. Model 64's, and service sixes. In 4" or 3" bbl round or squair butt's.
Of course I had to have one of each.
Agreed. Which do you prefer though?
As long as it's selected from among the many good quality offerings produced by the manufacturers who have experience making service weapons for LE/Gov need, I'm fine with carrying whatever is issued.
I liked the idea of carrying the agency weapon from the perspective of being able to have a damaged weapon repaired or replaced, or one taken into evidence replaced, at the agency's expense. (Admittedly, being trained as an armorer did give me some level of increased confidence when it came to being able to maintain my weapons according to manufacturer recommendations.)
If my former agency were to have given me the opportunity (toward the end of my career) to carry a personally owned weapon or theirs, I'd have continued to carry theirs.
I didn't feel that way when I was a younger cop, but I eventually came to feel that way the longer I worked in the field (even as a firearms instructor and armorer).
Reading WC145's post, above, assuming he's an LEO... Aren't the Officers allowed to claim their weapons on their taxes, if they buy them themselves??? Afterall, that IS for work...
Yes.
Quick question (and I don't want to hijack so let's keep it brief):
In the depts that allow LEOs to buy their own, do the PD's have to buy a ton of every cal ammo for training and such? Seems like that would drive them away from having so many different choices.
I work for a small town/dept. I buy all of my own ammo, they reimburse me for it. The town does not keep an inventory of anything, there is no armory, etc.
I like the ideal of carrying my own, but there are huge disavantages. Ammo should be considered. I agree that the dept, if they allow you to carry yours., they should be able to limit your choice to the depts ammo. We cant really expect them to furnish unteen differat types and calibers.
There is one other problem to consider. When the officer is involved in a shooting, the firearm is taken for evidence purposes. Our department ploicy was the street supervisors did carry in their car extra firearms. When an offers has his gun taken because of being an officer involved, the supervisor WILL ISSUE IMMEDETLY, THE OFFICER ANOTHER PISTOL/REVOLVER. That isnt gonna work verywell if several differant types of guns are allowed.
When I hired on, the dept issued Model 15 Smiths. They did say you could carry your own, as long as it was a Colt or Smith 4 in 38/357. The ammo issued was 38 158 RN Lead, cast and loaded by prisioner trustees. Needless to say most people bought their own ammo. (or like me, loaded my own). Shortly there after the dept bought and issued Model 28s for those of us who wanted to get away from the 38s. As we started to get more females, they purchased Model 13s giving us a choice of the 28s or 13s. Still pretty much the same style weapons and in the dept holsters either pistol would fit (maybe not real well but they would work in a situation as mentioned above. We were allowed differant holsters as long as the were black basketweaved and fit the 4 in revolver.
Later the dept started buying Winchester 125 grn HPs in 357. I dont remember them every using any other 38s. I was a range officer and we were required to carry, as the supervisors, extra ammo in case it was needed on the street. I never carried any 38s. We couild still buy our own ammo and I still carried reloads until I got caught. We we using the loops or extra ammo and you could see what ammo we carried. I was give 30 mins to come up with some comerical ammo and I did. I'm a fan of LSWCs and got some Winchester 158 gr SWC 357s, until we went to speed loaders and the Capt who told me to get the factory stuff retired, then I went back to reloads. Note: There was no written policy about reloads. Just that one Capts opinion but he was the partrol capt. I saw him at a gun show later and he asked if I went back to reloads after he retired, I said I had, he laughed and said I THOUGHT YOU WOULD.
Any, off track, The last couple years before I retired they started allowing semis if the range officer approved it. And Changed the barrel lenghts to anythinmg from 4-6.5 inches. You saw everything you could imagine. It kind of got out of hand.
I'm retired now, I dont know for sure what they carry but I think they went back to issuing two types of pistols depending on your hand size. I think but not sure they still let you carry the dept issued revolvers.
I'm a firm believer: REAL COPS CARRY REVOLVERS
There is one other problem to consider. When the officer is involved in a shooting, the firearm is taken for evidence purposes. Our department ploicy was the street supervisors did carry in their car extra firearms. When an offers has his gun taken because of being an officer involved, the supervisor WILL ISSUE IMMEDETLY, THE OFFICER ANOTHER PISTOL/REVOLVER. That isnt gonna work verywell if several differant types of guns are allowed.
When I hired on, the dept issued Model 15 Smiths. They did say you could carry your own, as long as it was a Colt or Smith 4 in 38/357. The ammo issued was 38 158 RN Lead, cast and loaded by prisioner trustees. Needless to say most people bought their own ammo. (or like me, loaded my own). Shortly there after the dept bought and issued Model 28s for those of us who wanted to get away from the 38s. As we started to get more females, they purchased Model 13s giving us a choice of the 28s or 13s. Still pretty much the same style weapons and in the dept holsters either pistol would fit (maybe not real well but they would work in a situation as mentioned above. We were allowed differant holsters as long as the were black basketweaved and fit the 4 in revolver.
Later the dept started buying Winchester 125 grn HPs in 357. I dont remember them every using any other 38s. I was a range officer and we were required to carry, as the supervisors, extra ammo in case it was needed on the street. I never carried any 38s. We couild still buy our own ammo and I still carried reloads until I got caught. We we using the loops or extra ammo and you could see what ammo we carried. I was give 30 mins to come up with some comerical ammo and I did. I'm a fan of LSWCs and got some Winchester 158 gr SWC 357s, until we went to speed loaders and the Capt who told me to get the factory stuff retired, then I went back to reloads. Note: There was no written policy about reloads. Just that one Capts opinion but he was the partrol capt. I saw him at a gun show later and he asked if I went back to reloads after he retired, I said I had, he laughed and said I THOUGHT YOU WOULD.
Any, off track, The last couple years before I retired they started allowing semis if the range officer approved it. And Changed the barrel lenghts to anythinmg from 4-6.5 inches. You saw everything you could imagine. It kind of got out of hand.
I'm retired now, I dont know for sure what they carry but I think they went back to issuing two types of pistols depending on your hand size. I think but not sure they still let you carry the dept issued revolvers.
I'm a firm believer: REAL COPS CARRY REVOLVERS
There should be department guidelines, like, get a reputable brand and have it checked by the armorer at the department. But I say let the officers pick. First, we all know some people shoot well with some guns and not others. Get what you can shoot with. Second, a lot of departments issue DAO autos, which suck, so it amkes molre sense to buy your own.
I think you should have the option of carrying an issued gun or one of your own. However, if carrying your own there should be an approved list of handguns and calibers. Also no matter what you carry (theirs or yours) you should have to qualify with that particular handgun. I'm not LE but I worked armed security, we don't have issued handguns but are current approved list is any DA/SA or DAO HK, Sig, Glock, Ruger, Beretta, S&W, Springfield or Taurus (I don't get that one) either in 9x19, .40s&w, .45acp or .38spl. We have a new contract starting at the beginning of the year that'll allow SAO handguns as well and a couple guys I work will look forward to being able to carry their 1911's.
Advantage of carringing your own choice is comfort, in both weapon and round size. Both of which can help an officer shoot better, but the down side is(like stated above) is everyone might have diferent ammo so if you run out you are SOL(simplie out of luck). But if you have the same ammo and different guns with different mags that does not help you eather cause then you need time to unload the ammo from one mag and reload it into another.
Best thing I think is for the department to take a vote and let the officers decide what fits them bets. Not everyone will be happy but its better than being dead.
Best thing I think is for the department to take a vote and let the officers decide what fits them bets. Not everyone will be happy but its better than being dead.
Here are the two viable options as I see it:
1. Standardize (no or very limited choices). Department evaluates and provides ammunition, standardized accessories. Department provides armorer services, etc., pays for expert assistance in court cases involving the operation of the ammunition, firearms and accessories.
2. Allow choice. Officer evaluates and provides ammunition, officer provides accessories, officer pays for armorer services, expert assistance required, etc.
In the long run, the vast majority of officers will be far better served by option 1.
1. Standardize (no or very limited choices). Department evaluates and provides ammunition, standardized accessories. Department provides armorer services, etc., pays for expert assistance in court cases involving the operation of the ammunition, firearms and accessories.
2. Allow choice. Officer evaluates and provides ammunition, officer provides accessories, officer pays for armorer services, expert assistance required, etc.
In the long run, the vast majority of officers will be far better served by option 1.
At one time, back in the days of revolvers, some large departments paid a sort of pro pay or extra pay for high scores on the range. Where it was allowed, some officers really tricked out their revolvers with the usual target accessories, including extra heavy bull barrels. It helped scores to be sure, but those officers quickly lost interest in carrying extra heavy revolvers. At the time a K-38 S&W Model 14 was typical policeman's weapon but obviously they would have only modified their personally owned revolvers.
I wonder if any policemen these days "tune" their pistols, not that you hear much of any doing anything to Glocks or Sigs.
I wonder if any policemen these days "tune" their pistols, not that you hear much of any doing anything to Glocks or Sigs.
There are always two sides to this argument.
The least convincing, IMHO, is the "compatible ammo" theory. This theory states that in a crunch, an officer low on ammo can obtain extra ammo from another officer at the scene. First, there are seldom those kinds of extended firefights. Second, if an officer has already used up his own supply of ammo and there is still a serious shoot-out going on, you question the effectiveness of his shooting.
In the wheelgun days, this may have made some sense as loose .38 rounds would fit any .38/.357 wheelgun. Today, my 15 round 9mm XD magazine won't fit your Glock or HK. Some of this gets into tactics & training for firefights.
From a departmental standpoint, a common weapon series in one caliber simplifies logistics - holsters, ammo, spare parts, armory training-tools-activity and so forth. Unfortunately, not all offers can use the same firearm effectively.
The least convincing, IMHO, is the "compatible ammo" theory. This theory states that in a crunch, an officer low on ammo can obtain extra ammo from another officer at the scene. First, there are seldom those kinds of extended firefights. Second, if an officer has already used up his own supply of ammo and there is still a serious shoot-out going on, you question the effectiveness of his shooting.
In the wheelgun days, this may have made some sense as loose .38 rounds would fit any .38/.357 wheelgun. Today, my 15 round 9mm XD magazine won't fit your Glock or HK. Some of this gets into tactics & training for firefights.
From a departmental standpoint, a common weapon series in one caliber simplifies logistics - holsters, ammo, spare parts, armory training-tools-activity and so forth. Unfortunately, not all offers can use the same firearm effectively.