Police cadets BRAGGING about traumatizing citizens

tooltimey

Moderator
When I first saw the headline for this story, I thought there was no way they could mean what it appeared they meant. Since I've personally encountered some cops who clearly and openly have the "us versus the citizen" mentality, where they see all citizens as guilty of something and where they love to abuse people, exert power over them, and humiliate them, I thought the headline sounded bad, but my mind thought it couldn't be possible for police to be this openly abusive and out of control. I've met cops who use intimidation to terrorize people and who brag that they have effectively all power, and cops who recognize that under certain circumstances, they can violate the law at will and/or make up their OWN law, but I STILL didn't think it possible that this headline could mean what it looked like. Apparently even my own cynicism has been outdone by these rookies.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071226...demy_slogan;_ylt=AtbjzNeriGzlP1VKKDR3h8Cs0NUE
 
Are you suprised.

Are you really suprised?
As the country on the whole takes on a more liberal mindset, fewer mainstream prospects are presenting themselves, leaving organizations across the country to scour the fringes for their new hires.
It sucks as this is hurting the military too. I deal with it on an almost daily basis. It's suprising how little some of the younger (mine, sadly) generation cares about either enforcing or abiding by the law.

On a personal note, since I was diagnosed with PTSD and have experienced it's symtoms firsthand (thank God for zoloft, it's okay now) I take the assinine jackass who came up with that crap has no idea about what it can do to people, and if he is former military as stated in the article, he's probably not someone we wanted to keep.
 
Sad, but true. Since the 1980s this has been going on and is nothing new, with no tolerance policing and an us vs everyone else mentality. The same thing happened in the 50s and 60s too.
 
As the country on the whole takes on a more liberal mindset, fewer mainstream prospects are presenting themselves, leaving organizations across the country to scour the fringes for their new hires.
Please elucidate.
 
This is the norm now days, not the exception. I wish more people would take a stand, peaceful at first, then "hands on" if necessary.
 
I'll give it a whirl

I can only speak from my personal experience-so whatever I say here is what I've actually seen or experienced.
I was a Marine Recruiter several years ago in Portland, Oregon. Originally the school would let us in for career days and the such. However, the restrictions upon us became more tight to the point that we were only allowed in the "career center" during lunch hour. If a student came to find us, that was fine but we weren't allowed to enter the common areas of the school. This culminated with a ban on military recruiters from the Portland Public School system -- the reason? The military's discrimitorary hiring policies as it related to homosexuals. I was escorted off campus on numerous occasions by school security for trespassing-this is while in full uniform.
At any rate, we were still able to find potential recruits. One requirement is that a potential applicant must provide proof that they are on track to graduate (at the time, 98% of applicants had to be high school graduates or seniors in good standing). There's a form that the military provides to the applicant to be filled out by the registrar or counselor to verify that fact. In 4 of my schools (all downtown Portland Public schools) the counselors would work very hard to convince the young man or woman that the military was for losers that had no "real" future prospects. They went so far as to provide their contact information to local peace groups to get the "real story". Bottom line was that the counselors were indoctronating these kids with the idea that they should go to college, get a job and buy a nice car and big house instead of considering the military since that was only for people who could do nothing else with thier lives.
End result? Many kids who wanted to serve caved due to pressure from counselors and peers.
There was a football coach at Wilson High School (SW Portland) who spent some time in the Corps. His take on it was that there was a shift in focus-kids were steered away from public-service type jobs (Police, Fire, Military) in favor of money jobs to the point of what I would consider clear indoctrination.
So-following this to it's logical end point, those that may have had the propensity to serve didn't. The military, law enforcement and public safety fields need the best and the brightest but they were being actively steered away from those careers in favor of more financially lucrative pursuits.
This made my job as a recruiter far more difficult - and I blame that in a large part to the environment created by the liberal worldview espoused by these influential people at their schools.
Are all areas like Portland? No-recruiters in Texas weren't having these same issues-I suspect Texas is far more conservative than Oregon-particularly Portland.

Bottom line-teenagers are impressionable. If they can be convinced that service is for losers and they'll never get an iPhone or Escalade if they work for the Gov't (local, state, federal) they'll go elsewhere to get the things they've been convinced are important.

Truth be told-we do have some stellar Americans (and men with green cards that see service as a obligation) in the military-I'm serving with 12 of them right this second so it's not all doom and gloom.

just my 2 dinar

Scott
MSgt USMC
Somewhere in Iraq
 
38splfan said:
Are you really suprised? I was diagnosed with PTSD and have experienced it's symtoms firsthand (thank God for zoloft, it's okay now)

They do describe these idiots as "cadets" and that usually means fish. They haven't been anywhere or done anything, and they are probably assuming everyone is impressed.

As another graduate of a highly regarded drooling academy I can tell you that there is hardly a hair's breath between mania and dismemberment.

Hey, if you're surrounded by crooked cops, why call out for more of them? It would appear you would left to your own devices...like in the good old days.
 
Clarity.

Please elucidate.

Certainly.
I've noticed in the military, police, and other positions of percieved authority, that quality potential candidates are shying away. A lot of this seems to have to do with viewpoints on politics, establishment, and authority. As it did a few generations ago, the current generation seems to be questioning the state of our government and the type of authority it imposes. Much of that mindset seems to stem from the Iraq War and also the post-9/11 militarization of many police organizations, especially so those in large cities or high-visibility departments.

This is all based on personal experience. I was a college freshman on 9/11. I was a reservist then, and quit school to go active duty the next year. I was one of VERY few. The idea now is that there is more money and a more satisfying life in the private sector, with more education. I see that now as we receive new soldiers fresh from training. The number with GED's or continuing-ed deplomas are rising, and the number with college education are dropping sharply.

This is applicable to police organizations as well. Many are lowering education standards in an attempt to lure recruits, and some are following the military idea of tossing big money bonuses at potential candidates. I keep up with departments at home, as the plan IF I leave the military is to enter law enforcement. Many have lowered standards from a 4 year degree, to a 2 year, and in the case of prison guards/county jailers, some have gone to high school diplomas as the only ed requirement.

The problem with this is that the younger guys who generally make up ideal police candidates who have the necessary education and life experience are choosing private sector employment. Public service is no longer "en vogue". It is more popular to down the government and it's representatives while being aloof to anything not concerning their own little bubble of the world. The attitude is very self-serving. This is becoming apparent even in traditionally conservative area's of the country. I'll use northwest Tennessee and western Kentucky as an example as that is what I call home. Even there, at schools like UK and UT, Murray State (my alma mater), and Austin-Peay, liberal mindset has become more and more prevalent, much of it thanks to former-flower-child educators who have not let go of their hippie university days and many of whom have no fear of pushing the "question authority/America sucks" agenda in their classrooms, just as my world-civ professor tried with us a few years ago. Not a bad point to make unless it is emotionally charged and made not as a belief but used as the winning hand in a popularity game.

What this leaves are people who are not bad folks but who tend to lack the education and life skills for policing, especially in the big city. Small town guys with traditional values, which is great, but who have not seen much of the world outside of that small town. Also, lots of folks who don't have the aptitude or critical thinking skills for the job are getting through the system.It's not that any of them are necessarily bad people, but lots have not led the lifestyle or had the education to make functional police officers.

Unfortunately, some bad folks are slipping through. Minor drug offenses, juvenilie records, and other "small" incidents are being overlooked as many federal and local agencies are pushing hard to fill overstressed and dwindling ranks.

Also, lots of departments, as they've become more and more militant, are turning to the military for new officers. In fact, the number of police departments recruiting at the Fort Lewis career fair nearly doubled from 2005 to 2007 (the two years I've actually been to the career fair for legitimate information). This is not bad, except that they are getting recruits like the guy in the article, who are combat-conditioned, hyper-agressive, and far less restrained.

I apologize that my first post was so juvenile, but that bit about PTSD really got me. I and several I know have been diagnosed, and have seen what it can do. I'm doing much better than some, but it's still hard. I'm sure the cadet in the article was joking, and I'm a big fan of graveyard humor, but it has it's time and place, and public just ain't it. Sure we can argue free speech, but that RIGHT also come with the RESPONSIBILITY of consideration, especially if you are preparing to accept a job in the public spotlight.

Hope this didn't bounce around, but it's late and I'm running on caffeine, cigarettes, and lots of holiday excitement. This is our last Christmas as a whole family (two Iraq tours and a year in Korea in the space of five years will do that to a marriage) so we made it a pretty big blowout for our son.

I hope this leads to more adult discussion than I've been able to provide as it is a serious issue and a very poor reflection on the direction American law enforcement is taking.
 
Bottom line was that the counselors were indoctronating these kids with the idea that they should go to college, get a job and buy a nice car and big house instead of considering the military since that was only for people who could do nothing else with thier lives.

they do that cause the whole education system is fubar. Schools and there boards are law exempt. they run them like a business and what ever policly the school board comes up with (regaredless if it is in violation of the constitution, federal, state, or local laws) is enforced by law enforcement and the counselors dont care about your children or were they belong in the world just that the more they send on their way to colledge the better the school looks and the more funding that school will get the next year.
 
Well you do have to admire them for their honesty. Most officers would try and make up some BS excuse. At least these individuals are honest enough to be truthful about it.
 
Lighten up, Francis

Having dealt with the mental anguish that can develop in the aftermath of seroius incidents and having friends who developed PTSD, I still saw the humor in the slogan. Of course I am known to have a very inappropriate sense of humor.

Let's look at a few slogans:

Don’t run- you’ll just die tired!

Speak softly- but carry a big gun!

Kill them all- let God sort them out!

US Sniper- Long Distance Operator [with picture reference to phone company]

Do unto others before they do unto you.

Peace through superior firepower.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil- For I am the meanest SOB in the valley!

Do whatever it takes to come home at the end of your shift.

US Army Sniper- Getting head for your freedom.

Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands!

Train hard, fight easy... and win. Train easy, fight hard... and die.

If you run, you'll only go to jail tired!

The handcuffs are tight because they're new. They'll stretch out after you wear them awhile.

If you come for my guns- don’t be the first one through the door!

Life's tough, it's tougher if you're stupid!

Aim Small- Miss Small

Molon Labe

US Army Sniper- Getting head for your freedom

Join the [Insert Branch of Military here]. Visit strange and exotic places. Meet fascinating people. And kill them.

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.

HO-HO-Homicide! Our day begins when your ends

When I'm driving along and I see a sign that says, “CAUTION: SMALL CHILDREN AHEAD”, I slow down, and then it occurs to me, “I'm not afraid of small children”. I speed back up!

They can have my guns- bullets first.

And lastly...

"Don't suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it."


Funny stuff, that list. Each and every one of the above mottos, slogans, or statements aim to educate others. Some are tongue-in-cheek. Some were surely made by people during dark moments in their lives when inappropriate humor is oft times used as a mechanism to distance ones self from the reality of the situation. Many have some type of humor imbedded in them.

So why is the last one so wrong. Are we so PC, we can’t joke about PTSD. After all, we all know it’s a serious problem, but the very attempt of making light of it is humor at its purest. That what all humans do (or rather used to do- I guess too many folks are buying into the whole PC issue these days).

The slogan in question is no different than the admonishment “Do it to them before they do it to you.” It says- Stay on top of your game! Don’t let your guard down! If push comes to shove- do what you have to do and don’t worry about it! That mindset doesn’t mean the officer has the intent to treat all by that statement, but rather the officer needs to get that mindset quickly as needed. It’s the mindset the officer needs when dealing with the people who mean to do you and them harm. Oh... is that concept too un-PC for a police officer to have? How about this one- “Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone.” Wait a minute- that is a favorite rule/motto used by [gasp] gun people [search for gunfight rules- it's there]. But, I gather it’s fine for them to use- I guess police officers need to be kind and gentle.

Police officers are the “rough men who stand ready to do violence on their behalf so the people can sleep peaceably in their beds at night”. Obviously, if you are anti-police, that concept will probably bother you as much as the slogan used by the recruit class. Sometimes mottos and slogans are designed to shock others. Sometimes they are designed to be inappropriate. But, there is always some truth to them. There’s always a bit of truth in them directed towards the people they are intended for.

Let me finish by apologizing on behalf of those future officers. But, if even one of them has to take a life during his career and comes to peace with the deed by remembering that slogan, I’ll be happy they remembered it. Because one of the saddest things that can happen is watching a good police officer tumble down into the depths of PTSD when the act that is causing the stress was necessary and the right thing to do.
 
A friend of mine once said anyone that will strap on a gun and dare people to shoot at him for $17,000 a year is crazy. He was refering to LEO's and I pretty much agree with him and admire most police officers. There are some that are in it for the power trip and are truly crazy but putting up with the general public any more will drive almost anyone crazy. Interesting thing about the list of slogans is that most of those can be found a sigs in this forum but if a LEO were to utter them they would be crucified. I think the one about PSTD is more realistic that one would think and if taken for what it was meant for would be fine. However the general public will not see it that way so in our PC society it has to go. You know what they call a Congressman who stands by his principles and doesn't compromise? An Ex-congressman. Sadly that is our society today.
 
...and they'll never get an iPhone or Escalade if they work for the Gov't (local, state, federal) ...
So true, 6 years of State Service, and I have a Kia, and a cheap Alltell phone. If I promote all the way to Deputy Warden, then I get a free Blackberry. Whoopee.
 
It is easy to blame the lack of recruits on the "Liberals", but the fact that even people in the traditionally conservative areas of the country are declining to join the military at this time suggests to me that they have grown weary of our military being used in situations that are not for self-defense. Recruitment spiked after 9/11 because Americans believed that they would be needed to defend the country. Instead they were sent off to fight in a country that posed no danger to us. Is it a surprise that just like anything else, our foreign policy causes a reaction at home and abroad? Is it a surprise that many people do not want to be put in the position of killing and dying for a cause they don't believe in?

The way some veterans or current military personnel belittle people who decide to go to college instead of joining the military is disgraceful. The reason the military exists is so that Americans can lead a safe and normal life. I'm sure that is why you joined, so why now look down on the people you were protecting?

America has a proud history of answering the call when our country needs us. It one part of what makes America so great. But since WWII, there have been very few times when our country needed us. After 9/11 our country needed us, and Americans responded just like we always have. But then, the mission was perverted in Iraq and recruitment dropped correspondingly after it became clear that it had been a mistake.

It has been said already, 17 year olds are impressionable. Let's let them finish their education and then when they know all of their options they can decide if the cause is worth killing for. And if they decide that the existence of America is not threatened by a ****-hole country like Iraq, who could blame them?

Hector
 
Vermont said:
It is easy to blame the lack of recruits on the "Liberals", but the fact that even people in the traditionally conservative areas of the country that you mentioned are declining to join the military at this time suggests to me that they have grown weary of our military being used in situations that are not for self-defense.
Really? Here in traditionally conservative Idaho, there is no problem... Except in the more liberal areas of our State.

The way some citizens belittle people who decide to join the military instead of going immediately to college is disgraceful. :rolleyes:
 
Hey, guys, let's add a bit of reality to this thread.

The OP said, "cadets."

Now, sooner or later every newbie has to go on his first "domestic" call, or he gets called to be back-up at some honky-tonk gin-mill where cowboys and bikers are destroying the place.

If a young cop is just itching for a fight, trust me, he'll find it among the ranks of those who just don't care.

Even some of my friends who are LEOs tell me that calls to trailor parks always get them worried.

Imagine a toothless townie, crazed by meth, bursting out of a double-wide as he racks a 12-gauge.

Yeah, do your "inflict PTSD" on that guy...
 
Just for an add-on, this just in as breaking news.

I probably should have recognized the style, but sadly I missed it. The "motto" that the recruit class in question chose is being attributed to an author by the name of Grossman. He is an excellent motivation speaker who lectures the military and the police on mindset.

Mindset- have a positive mindset. But, that's what mottos are for. Hell, we used them all of the time when I played soccer and football in high school. We used them all of the time when I was in the Marine Corps. We used them during my entire time in the Army. A lot of the time, those mottos would be what current PC-type folk would rail against and they were definitely not PC. We liked ‘em. The mottos motivated us. Kinda like the running cadences we sang.

But, the mindset the motto in question brings up is the same any CCW holder should have. If you have to fight- take the fight to the other guy. It's a matter of taking personal responsibility for your actions- you have to decide if you are going to be the victim, or if you are going to hurt the other guy... If you decide he needs to be hurt- the problem was his. Suffer no remorse for your actions. Isn’t that what we promote here on this forum. Sadly, if a police officer voices that mindset, they are purloined.

My thoughts on the subject- If an officer causes a bad guy stress, it sucks to be the bad guy. Screw with a police officer, you're probably going to be left holding the short end of the stick. I want my police officers to have that mindset. I want the police to win. It keeps me and mine safe.

I'm a cop, and I can tell you, totally without any reservation, that if someone comes to my house when I'm away, I pray with all my heart that a cop is nearby to rescue my wife from harm. My wife will shoot them if need be. But, I'd rather a cop do it for her. A cop should have the motto some people have objected in this thread in the back of their mind. We'd be stretching the truth when talking about using deadly force issue to believe anyone who has to do it is going to walk away without mental problems later. That’s why I’d rather a police officer shoot the bad guy than have my wife do it. She’ll do it- but I’m well aware of the resulting issues she’ll go through.

You make the choice- break into my house- threaten my family with a deadly weapon- the cops show up and shoot you. Do you want a police officer that can deal with the situation, or do you want to pay a 75% disability for the rest of that officer's life because he can’t wrap his head around what he did. I'll take choice A, and thank you very much. I also want a police officer that will come to terms with what he did. I want a police officer that will learn from the incident and become a better police officer.

Granted, the police can't save me all of the time, but they can some times. I like that. I'd rather let them deal with the dregs of our society. Especially if we are talking about the concept that my wife can’t get a cop to the home fast enough to deal with the issue. She can deal with it, but I’d rather she didn’t have to. That’s what me and mine train for. We are always aware we can’t save all of the people all of the time; but we all know that we may have to make the decision we may have to kill someone. We do that every day. We don’t have the same choice a CCW holder has. We can’t, or at least we shouldn’t, decide if we want to become a victim. We have to act.

If an officer becomes indecisive, it lowers his ability to win. No rational person wishes any encounter will come to deadly force- but every rational person should be mentally prepared to deal with that outcome. And any rational person that carries a gun should have the mental preparation in place to know it will affect them and they need to have something in place to deal with those effects.

Hence a nice little, maybe trite, motto- “If I come for you, I’m coming with a rifle- handguns are for pussies!”
 
209 said:
Grossman...He is an excellent motivation speaker who lectures the military and the police on mindset.

Sounds like he needs a new line of work, something he's qualified at doing. Perhaps selling shoes.

Will a newbie cadet survive for more than a few seconds with that attitude among Mongols or Pagans?

Do the Crips respect that macho mindset?

Heck, some other cops don't even like it. Does the name "Serpico" ring a bell?

What these youngsters need is quality training. They also need to understand that they are not in the army and every action will be reviewed by their superiors and attornies.

In Madison, we just had another taser incident. And guess what, the victim was unarmed. To CYA, the police were quick to point out that the victim was uncooperative.

However, even in the fairyland that is Madison, that cop's life will never be the same. He will be investigated, there will be legal action, there will be a financial settlement and the incident will be mentioned at every chance that guy has for advancement.

This motivational speaker is worth less than nothing.
 
Really? Here in traditionally conservative Idaho, there is no problem... Except in the more liberal areas of our State.

A 2007 poll showed that 61% of Americans say Iraq was not worth it. So unless at most 39% of the country is conservative, even support among conservatives is dwindling. http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/18/poll.wars/index.html


The way some citizens belittle people who decide to join the military instead of going immediately to college is disgraceful.

I have never criticized someone who was in the military because they were in the military and if I sound like I did, then I apologize a million times. I am however guilty of criticizing certain members of the military for their views, just like I disagree with civilians about their views.


I gotta stay out of the Legal and Political section of this forum. It seems I am always the only one here who holds my view. Or I should just stick to talking about gun rights. At least there I seem to have plenty of company. Considering myself liberal but supporting strong gun rights is a lonely business.:D

Hector
 
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