Point-and-shoot failure

C

ctdonath

New member
(Not intended to re-open old wounds. This just seemed worth passing on, as the base subject pops up occasionally.)

From a friend of a friend of a friend in Africa:

"I had a student shoot himself in the leg yesterday during training. His trigger finger was perfectly in the register position, but his middle finger rested on the trigger without me noticing it. He shoved the gun into his holster, and it fired, even in the trigger-cocking mode! The wound was embarrassing but not serious. He was back on course the next day.

"Lessons: The 'middle-finger-on-trigger' technique, sometimes call the 'Pittsburgh Grip,' has been used off and on by the Pittsburgh PD and others for several decades and had caused uncounted accidents (mostly
self-inflicted), like the one enumerated above. It proponents say the index finger is used to point, and the middle finger is used to manipulate the trigger, but there is no way both fingers can go into register simultaneously, so we see incidents like the one above. How stupid can you get?"
 
While I am no fan of the P&S technique, I wouldn't blame the technique for this incident; rather the shooter who had his finger on the trigger when he shouldn't have.
 
Since I've been on the forum I don't remember this subject being discused so for us that haven't been throught this. Lets open up old wounds.

Thoughts pro and con.

Turk
 
I agree with Chris. This wasn't a "Point-and-Shoot" failure, since this technique is beyond simple point shooting. And it wasn't a failure of the technique in question either---it was a failure of the student to adhere to one of the most basic safety rules: Keep your finger off the trigger.
Why would you try to characterize it as a failure of the technique?
 
The problem (well, this particular problem) is that the technique inherently draws one to keeping a finger on the trigger. Try this: open your hand, then tightly curl the last two fingers...the middle finger will naturally curl right into where the trigger would be. There's no good place to put the middle finger outside the trigger, and body mechanics will insist on drawing the finger into the trigger. The standard index-finger hold is far less prone to such mechanics; a normal grip can quickly be trained to keep the trigger finger off the trigger and on the slide, even when strongly gripping the handle.
 
My middle finger extends past the front of the trigger guard on my P228. Or I can place it (about one half finger width) alongside the frame. Lots of things happen "inherently", which is why we train.

Again, I'm not a supporter of the technique, and while the technique may have made this ND easier to occur, it was the failure of the shooter to practice proper gun-handling skills.

If you ND a Glock during field-stripping (you have to pull the trigger after all, unlike many other pistols) is that a failure of the pistol or its design?
 
There is a long dragged out thread going on right now about this on Glocktalk's Tactics and Training forum. Read it if you dare.

I hate the method because it gives a very poor grip on the gun, and it does not address all the other factors in shooting besides pointing the gun, like trigger control, recoil control, follow through, gun retention etc. And, I point my gun just as well without the technique. Lastly, my fingers are not that agile and I end of curling my other fingers when I don't want to, which throws off shots and can lead to negligent discharges. Play around with the technique a little and you can quickly see how your clumsy, long middle finger can cause ND's.

If a PD has been using this technique for several years, there must be some data on whether it works or not in real shootings?
I think it is a stupid ass silly method that appeals to armchair commandos that refuse to get some training and practice, just like the people that buy martial arts videos that claim to teach you in 20 minutes to be able to knock out any attacker. JMHO.

If you want to read all about it, go see:
http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/Forum4/HTML/000649.html



[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited September 01, 2000).]
 
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