Please tell me they're not always like this.

N

Nightcrawler

New member
Had a Nat'l Guard FTX this past weekend, which meant running around the woods with my M16A1 (made by General Motors, though a few are stamped "Colt AR-15") loaded with blanks.

It would have feeding problems halfway through each magazine, and forget about putting it on full auto.

Now, I'll admit, I've never fired an M16A1 with standard ammo before. For rifle qualf, we have only a short indoor range, which requires the use of a special bolt and blue-tipped plastic low velocity rounds that REALLY gum up the barrel.

I'll also admit that my M16A2 in boot camp (also made by Hydra Matic Corp., though some were FN produced) gave me little grief, and only jammed once or twice there that I can recall (in the entire 3 1/2 months I was there).

But I don't have that M16A2. I have a very old M16A1, and this is the rifle I'll be carrying to Bosnia when we go in 2004 (assuming that the mission isn't changed and I'm still in then). For the love of Mike (me), somebody please reassure me that this thing is going to perform better with live ammo than it does with blanks. Am I going to have to stop shooting in the middle of a firefight (assuming I get into one) to yank back the charging handle halfway through each magazine?

I take good care of my weapon when it comes to cleaning and maintenance. But you can't stop to clean your rifle in the middle of a patrol or during an engagement!
 
Just out of curiosity, did you have a blank firing adapter on your weapon, and it was on very tight? Did you switch magazines? Did any of them have cracked feed lips? Was it the same sort of jam every time? Answer that and we may be able to help....
 
I had the blank adapter as tight as I could get it.

The magazines were older ones (we have some new 30 rounders with the law enforcement/export stamp on them, but most of them were old 20 and thirty rounders). I don't recall seeing any damage to my magazines (two 30 rounders and one 20).

It was dark when I did my shooting, but it seemed to be the same problem. Sort of like a double feed, I'm pretty sure, or the bolt wouldn't go all the way forward and the next round wouldn't be chambered. Either way, I had to yank back on the charging handle to clear it.
 
The M-16s in exercises work unreliably usually because of a loose BFA attachment. Blanks normally won't work in a semi-automatic weapon because they don't produce enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon. The BFA increases gas pressure in the barrel to the point where the bolt can reliably cycle. That screw that goes into the barrel acts as the "bullet" that would normally be blocking the escaping gases and causing the pressure to build up.
If the BFA is loose or stripped out then some of the gas escapes and your rifle doesn't cycle properly.

I once watched an M60 gunner "adjust" his BFA by picking it up and driving it into a tree full force like it was a bayonet thrust. It worked but it shows you what some of those weapons go through.

I also recommend you check out your magazines. National Guard armories are notorious repositories of stuff that should be in museums and magazines are a common source of misfeeds.
 
Ahh, the old M-16 won't fire blanks question...

I have many years of experience with them right here. I have yet to run into this problem and have it not be a combination of two things. As Mr. Roberts said, it is usually associated with the blanks not producing enough gas pressure to move the bolt carrier enough to load the next round, or extract the expended one.

I have also found that in order to fire blanks in my work rifles, one must really lube it up good, and clean it often. I have 13 years in this coming August, and have dealt with the M-16 and it's variants almost everyday. I am now a firearms instructor and deal with them intimately almost daily. They are a good shooting rifle given the proper conditions. Blanks are not one of the conditions I would consider in the favor of the M-16 rifle. Happy shooting and good luck in Bosnia.
 
One thing I remember from the days of shooting balnks in an M-16 is, before I put the BFA on the rifle, very closele examine the "face"of the BFA where it actually contacts the barrel. make sure you get one that doesn't have any black marks, cracks, grooves or rough spots on it that would allow any gas to escape. We had to turn it our BFA's when the rifles went back to the armory so I had to pick through the bucket of them to get a "good"one. I know I had a lot less jams than most when I got a good one
 
So...

You guys are telling me that should I ever need my M16, and it's loaded with M193 ball or SS109 ammo, it will be able to fire three, four, or five magazines without jamming?
 
I think the last time me and my friend did a ".223 fest" We each did 500 rounds...

So two AR15's cycles 500 rounds each flawlessly, and rapidly (as fast as my finger will twitch). No problems.

http://www.buffertech.com/accu.htm This helped greatly to the reliability, if that's any help.

Albert
 
Or twenty or thirty... Comparing blanks to ball is sort of like comparing matchbox cars to what's in your driveway..

Giz

(Who started with a GM Hydra-Matic M16E2)
 
*whew*

Thanks guys. I feel quite a bit better now. :)

I don't know if I'll go to Bosnia. My enlistment ends in 2004. If I'm short but not out then, they'll probably send me then discharge me when we get back.

As is, I don't plan on reenlisting in the Michigan Nat'l Guard. I'll be getting out of college in 2004 and it'll be time to decide what to do with my life. I'm not really the Army type, to be honest. I like to "do my own thing" and am an "individual", which the drill sergeants said was the wost thing you can do. I might go into the Air Force after college, but the school I'm going to doesn't offer Air Force ROTC, so I dunno.

I do know, however, that I'm not too keen on missing a year of school to spend either three or six months in some third world armpit dodging sniper fire and worrying about those damned wooden land mines the Soviets designed that can't be detected by our mine detectors (we're combat engineers, mines are our thing). And for what? To play Li'l Suzie Nationbuilder in some regional dispute that has nothing to do with the security of the United States?

Sorry if I sound bitter. I know it isn't the Army's fault we're over there, but the Army has a whole mess of problems of their own right now, and if I were to go active int he Army, I'd be utterly miserable, I know this.

I figure I've put my time in, made myself available to fight for my country (or world peace, regional stability, or whatever the hell we bomb third world countries for these days) and it's not my fault they didn't have any wars while I was in. They can always get another grunt; I've only got one life and I intend to at least make an attempt to enjoy it.

On the other hand, I care about the guys in my squad and my platoon. If they're going to be in danger, I want to be there with them, and to hell with my year in college.

*sigh* At least I've got a couple years to think about this. I've gotten way off topic here, though.
 
It's what we were told. 38th infantry (parent unit to the 107th Engineer Battalion) is going to the Balkans in 2004. Those orders could be changed, I guess, but we were informed that most likely we're going.

"Again"? Heh. My unit hasn't been sent overseas since WWII, where we served in both the pacific and europe. Our company, not just the battalion, has battle streamers of its own.

In Europe, redesignated the 254th Engineers, or something like that, we were that engineer unit that held the Germans off for eight hours during the battle of the bulge. :)
 
Last edited:
E = Experimental

Hey Gizmo99,
The E in the M16E2 you had/used stands for experimental. I know, I dealt with "XM16E1"s in 1967 in Vietnam. Those E1 rifles were also made by GM Hydra-Matic Division. Those rifles killed a lot of Marines in the DMZ wars. Is it posiable that you had a E1 vice a E2 version?

Clem
USMC Ret
 
Nightcrawler, if you're really interested in knowing the ins and outs of the M16 I highly recommend you reading The Black Rifle by R. Blake Stevens (or Stephens). The GM M16 came about because the Army wanted additional sources besides Colt but according to Stevens, GM quality control never could make a reliable weapon. They are considered world class PsOS. The other manufacturer was H&R, IIRC, better, but not up to Colt standards. :eek:
 
Hi Clem, welcome!

IIRC, the XM16E2 was in fact an M16A1 - forward assist, possibly a chrome-lined barrel.. This was in 1977, both on active (Army) duty and in an Army Reserve unit.

Giz
 
Hydra matic M16

My experience with these guns was that they were not made as well as the colt and H & R M16s. Had a lot of jams with them. I qualified Expert in Basic with an H & R M16. Never could shoot those Hydra matics worth a damn though.

Then I was Commissioned and they gave me old rattletrap 1911s. At least they shot when you wanted them to.

That business with the M60 and trees was standard procedure when you put on the blank adapter. The gun wouldn't work unless you did the tree drill. An old Ranger Sgt told me that the barrel needed some residue build up to function in full auto, holding it against the tree helped gunk up the barrel.

Ah memories :barf:

Geoff Ross
 
I have had problems shooting blanks with both the M16A1 and A2 models. Sometimes it works great..sometimes it sucks. We never really fired many of them anyway because it was such a pain in the butt to clean the weapons.

One fun thing we did like to do was to removed the adapter and slide a bb in there for kicks. I know..definite no no..but a guy spending 80 percent of his Army career in the woods has gotta have fun some way! We also used to stick an empty blank in the end of the barrel and fire it...a real definite no no!.. :D

You should have no problems with your M16 with standard Ammo provided you have a clean weapon and the conditons are right. We used to have a blast shooting until the gas tube turned cherry red. Now throw a little desert dust in the action and you are screwed. Same thing with mud. The 16's can be a fickle beast and if I had to choose a weapon to go to war with again...I damn sure wouldn't choose an M16.

Look at the bright side, if you are engaged in a battle, at least you can get an AK off a dead guy and have a "real' weapon! :D

Good SHooting
RED
 
I wouldn't ever use blanks to check reliability of a weapon. You SAW gunners know what I am talking about. Your rifle will be fine with live ammo.
 
Gas operated weapon + blanks (w/bfa) = malfunctions and crud. I worked on a project that remotely operated (charged/fired/safed) an M240 (B and G models), some ranges were large enough to use ball ammo, others only had enough safety fan to use blanks. Normally could go through a 200 round belt of ball without any corrective action (clear jam), with blanks could rarely get more than a 15 round burst between jams.

The M240s I have used are quite reliable with ball ammo, and very unreliable with blanks. I suspect this is the same for the M16, M4, M249, M60, etc.

I do hope you are allowed to fire ball ammo before your in a situation where you have to rely on your weapon.
 
Kerth,

Actually I hope everyone gets a chance to shoot both Blanks and Ball ammo often.

As a Military Firearms Instructor myself, I see far too many people who do not know their immediate actions or remedial actions when they have a malfunction or jam. Let them fire blanks through their weapon, and practice with blanks until you get it right is the way I see it. That way when you get into a situation you will know what to do.

I wouldn't know about M-240's since we don't have them yet.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top