Please let me best this dead horse, once more...

F

FiveInADime

New member
So I just picked up a Savage 11 Predator Hunter in .223 and discovered it shoots Federal GM Match 69gr very, very well.

Box listed velocity is 2950.

What powder is going to duplicate FGMM performance?

If I could afford it I would skip handloading and just buy a case of this stuff. I think it'll shoot .25 MOA with no human error.




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Since most factory powers are proprietary I don't think I'd try to "duplicate" the factory load but go through the process of finding a good load for the rifle with components available to the public. Powder characteristics can affect barrel harmonics, and bullet performance, and accuracy and finding a powder that exactly matches the factory blend can be pretty difficult. You know what your rifle is capable, so use that as a goal...

I like reloading so I would keep in mind what my gun is capable of and shoot for that, more reloading, more shooting, no down side...:p
 
What powder is going to duplicate FGMM performance?
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I do not know, I built a 270 Winchester then loaded 120 rounds of 12 different loads with 10 cases in each group and headed for the range. I used 12 different case head stamps, different bullets and various powders.

I was surprised; I had no fliers and all of the groups stayed together, some shared the same hole, I did not have one group open up and all groups of 10 rounds could be covered with a quarter. I duplicated the 12 different loadings and delivered the rifle to the owner; I ask him to find out what the rifle liked. Later he said the rifle liked everything. Once he shot 10 rounds he fired the first round of the next 10 and then adjusted the scope.

Later I got the cases back in a box; getting the cases back in the same group of 10 was no problem because I used different head stamps. I used new cases, once fired cases, and cases from different manufacturers.

And then he told me that was the most difficult rifle to take apart for cleaning he had ever seen. And I had to ask just how dirty the rifle got while firing 250 rounds. He said getting it back together was not much easier.

F. Guffey
 
Federal uses a Sierra Matchking in their Gold Medal brand. There are several powders that give you 2950ish fps with a 69 grain bullet. Some of 'em are max loads, but there are a bunch where that speed is mid range. Varget, for example. BlC2, H4895 and CFE 223 do as well. Pick one and work up the load.
Like mikld says, don't think in terms of duplicating factory. The .25 MOA is far more likely coming through a load you've worked up specifically for your rifle.
 
T. O'Heir said:
Federal uses a Sierra Matchking in their Gold Medal brand. There are several powders that give you 2950ish fps with a 69 grain bullet. Some of 'em are max loads, but there are a bunch where that speed is mid range. Varget, for example. BlC2, H4895 and CFE 223 do as well. Pick one and work up the load.
Like mikld says, don't think in terms of duplicating factory. The .25 MOA is far more likely coming through a load you've worked up specifically for your rifle.
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I didn't mean to say that the rifle will ever shoot .25 MOA. I just meant that it seems it will be more accurate than I am with factory Federal GM Match 69gr SMK.

Most people recommend Varget for about 2750fps with a 69gr. SMK. I was just wondering if another powder may come closer to the GMM stated velocity and let me efficiently duplicate the accuracy I've seen (based on someone's experience).

I've never had a rifle shoot factory ammo so well, so it's kind of throwing me for a loop. All of my other rifles I've been able to shrink the groups by a lot with handloads.

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Not long ago I bought the new Nosler reloading book (now not the NEW NEW one). I shoot mostly Nosler bullets, and I was a bit surprised to find that my best loads with various powders were almost exactly the same as shown in the manual. For instance, they showed 41 gr of IMR4064 as the most accurate powder for the 100 gr BT in the 260. Well, I had settled on 41.1 a couple of years ago. Hmmm. Same thing for my 220 Swift and my 270 with their respective powders and loads. So, based on that, I think I'd get the Sierra manual and go with what they suggest. Can't hurt. Or, you might look at what the Nosler manual has to say about their 69 gr bullet and powder charge. I say that because the loads that work in my 220 and 270 print the same at 100 yards with Nosler bullets and the same weight in Sierra GK's.

And, as much as I like and use the Lyman 49th, for 223 they use quite a list of barrel lengths for their velocity testing. Because of that, I don't think I'd use the Lyman for what you want to do.
 
"...kind of throwing me for a loop..." Hi. Yep. Had a silly grin on my face when my '03A4 went to one hole too. No reason for your rifle not to shoot .25, but you have to work up the load to get there.
Sometimes you get lucky with factory, but it's usually too expensive to shoot regularly.
The powders I mentioned all start below 2900 fps and go over it with max loads with a 69 grain bullet according to Hodgdon. Varget's(starts at about 2784) just one of 'em that does that with a 1 in 12, 24" barrel. Just a suggestion though. You may find another powder gives better accuracy with the same or less velocity.
 
You could disassemble one of the factory rounds to examine and weigh the powder charge. I know that you can't positively identify the powder by looks alone, and they may use a custom blend that is impossible to match up exactly. However, if it is a ball type propellant, it will very likely be similar to W-748 or BL-C(2), or LVR or some others in that burn range that are ever so slightly different. Visually, some of these powders look identical, so part of the clues will be charge weight and velocity yield.

So, yes, I think you can make a load that is a virtual duplicate. If not exactly, at least, perhaps, indistinguishable, especially if it shoots as well.
 
You can duplicate that velocity from your rifle with Varget, H4895, 8208 XBR, AR-Comp, PowerPro 2000 MR, and Reloader 15. There are plenty of others out there in addition to these.

I recommend H4895 as a starting point.

Jimro
 
Thank you, everyone.



Jimro said:
You can duplicate that velocity from your rifle with Varget, H4895, 8208 XBR, AR-Comp, PowerPro 2000 MR, and Reloader 15. There are plenty of others out there in addition to these.

I recommend H4895 as a starting point.

Jimro
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I'm going to flip a coin on whether I get Varget or H4895 first.

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I don't know what Federal used in their rounds, but I have had great results with IMR4320 and a Sierra 65gr SP out of my 5.56 AR.

With a 69gr bullet, IMR4320 maxes out at 2873 out of a 24" barrel according to Hodgdon. Speed does not equal accuracy though. I have several guns that prefer to be loaded closer to starting loads than max loads. Get a few types of powders, some good bullets (I'm not sure where you can get those Federal bullets, but the 69gr Sierra Matchkings might make a suitable replacement), and work on load development.
 
Tex44 said:
I'm not sure where you can get those Federal bullets, but the 69gr Sierra Matchkings might make a suitable replacement), and work on load development.
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They are 69gr SMKs in FGMM. Because of that I have some reasonable hope that I can get them to perform if I can get close to the FGMM load.






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Reloader 15 with Hornady 68 grain HPBT Match make a good combination with all the primers I have tried so far. You could spend more for other brands of bullets though getting better results would be debatable.
 
Reloder 15 is about all I use anymore for 69gr and above in .223. I had been using Varget with acceptable results but had to try something different when Varget went pretty much MIA a few years ago. Had a pound of RL15 that a friend had given me and found it at least as good if not better than Varget plus it was popping up on shelves often enough to keep in supply. Now I'm finding Varget but really have no reason to switch back...
 
Ifishsum said:
Reloder 15 is about all I use anymore for 69gr and above in .223. I had been using Varget with acceptable results but had to try something different when Varget went pretty much MIA a few years ago. Had a pound of RL15 that a friend had given me and found it at least as good if not better than Varget plus it was popping up on shelves often enough to keep in supply. Now I'm finding Varget but really have no reason to switch back...
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2nd this. I've had phenomenal results with RL15 and 69g bullets out of my Armalite. I picked up quite a bit of the RL15 six months ago or so just to feed my AR. Meters through a powder through very nicely too.
 
Kimber84 said:
2nd this. I've had phenomenal results with RL15 and 69g bullets out of my Armalite. I picked up quite a bit of the RL15 six months ago or so just to feed my AR. Meters through a powder through very nicely too.
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I don't know why but locally they are charging $5-$6 more per pound for RL powders vs Hogdon/IMR. Used to be cheaper.

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FiveInADime,

Note that the SAAMI standard velocity test barrel for .223 Remington is 24" long, ±0.010", has a 12" twist with a groove diameter of 0.224" and land diameter of 0.219" with 6 lands 0.074" +0.002" and has a SAAMI minimum chamber +.0005" in diameter dimensions and a +0.005 unilateral tolerance for the headspace dimension. This is the barrel the box velocity spec is for. Unless your barrel matches that, it is unlikely to get the same velocity.
 
Unclenick said:
FiveInADime,

Note that the SAAMI standard velocity test barrel for .223 Remington is 24" long, ±0.010", has a 12" twist with a groove diameter of 0.224" and land diameter of 0.219" with 6 lands 0.074" +0.002" and has a SAAMI minimum chamber +.0005" in diameter dimensions and a +0.005 unilateral tolerance for the headspace dimension. This is the barrel the box velocity spec is for. Unless your barrel matches that, it is unlikely to get the same velocity.
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Yeah. I know my gun isn't going to match that velocity. All I'm concerned with is making my handload shoot as good as the FGMM with similar velocity.

22" barrel, 9" twist.

I'm still collecting components. I've got a bunch of factory ammo left to try out, too. Next time I'm out at the range I'll have my friend come out with his chrono and we'll see what the FGMM is running out of my gun so I have a baseline to compare to when I start working loads.

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