Please help me choose a Leupold scope.

E

El Rojo

New member
I just bought a Rem 700 VS in .308 and want to get a very nice Leupold scope for it. I already have the Dual Dove Tail bases and 1 inch rings, but I have no problem buying some 30mm rings.

I was originally thinking about getting a Tactical 3.5X10 M1 with target knobs in mil dot. Now I am wondering if I really need those fancy target nobs and if I should get a LR 6X20 with mil dot. I would like to use this scope for hunting, varmenting, and possibly silloute and sniping in a law enforcement type situation.

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Please take into account less money spent on a scope is more money for ammo! However, I want a good scope and I am prepared to spend up to $900 if necessary.
 
I have the same rifle. I mounted a Leupold 6.5x20x40 extende focal range and target knobs. I love this scope. I really wanted a 30mm tube but the price really increased. I really do not have no use for a M1 or M4 series scope with mildots, and they can only be had in fixed power although I do like the 30mm tube. If I had the money, I would get the 6.5x20x50 LR with side parallax adjustment and target knobs with fine duplex. Premiere reticles can always install the mildots later on if you think you may need them. I really like the 40mm objective over the 50mm. The 50 just seems to big for me. Sling shot
 
> I was originally thinking about getting a Tactical 3.5X10 M1 with target knobs in mil dot. Now I am wondering if I really need those fancy target nobs and if I should get a LR 6X20 with mil dot. I would like to use this scope for hunting, varmenting, and possibly silloute and sniping in a law enforcement type situation. <

Ok El, there are a few issued here. I take it you have already decided on a MilDot... Good, they are great ittle things!

Now first off... Target Knobs. For the purposes you mentioned yes you need target knobs! I would guess that you will be using different bullets for hunting, varminting, etc. Each will have a different zero. While you could do the normal adjustments it is much much easier with target knobs. Example. I keep my "presision" rifle zeroed for 300. When I take it hunting with my hunting round I click in my zero for hunting (200 yds)(takes all of 2 seconds). (I then use the mildots for 100 & 300 aiming points). I would avoid scopes with a "ballistic cam" as these are usually set for a specific bullet (usually Fed Match) so if you are shooting something else they will be off to a certain extent.

Next point is Variable Power & MilDots. Unless Leupold has changed their scope I would avoid a variable with MilDot. The reason is that the MilDot Reticle is not on the correct focal plain to be used in a variable. For the MilDots to subtend correctly the scope has to be on a certain power. Not a problem if you want to range (if you have the time to adjust the scope to that power setting) but if you then change power and need to use the MilDots to lead/holdover/under you will be guessing on what they subtend. The way to check this is if you change the power setting and the MilDots remain the exactly the same size.

Springfield puts their MilDots on the correct focal plain for their variables. Say your @ 5X the MilDots cover say 10% of the target, you increase the power setting to say 9X... the MilDots look bigger through the scope but in fact they will still subtend correctly because your viewing the target up closer (MilDots will still cover 10%). With a Leupold as you increase the power setting the target gets "bigger" but the MilDots stay the same small size (which means they are subtending less).

While you can "learn" what the MilDots subtend at each power setting it is just another variable you have to remember when trying to use the MilDots. The KISS principle refers.

When I was looking for a scope for my "Precision" rifle I looked at every "Precision" Scope that was out on the Market (Springfield hadn't come out with their Gen III yet (the variable with the MilDot on the correct focal plain)). I decided that for the applicatios I would use it for (which BTW are the same as yours) a fixed 10X w/MilDot and Target Knobs would do (another plus is there is less things w/in the scope to break/go wrong with).

I ended up getting a Leupold Mark 4 M1 and haven't been disappointed in the least with it.

So IMO 1 - Yes to the Target Knobs and 2 -for a fixed power MilDot Scope - Leupold Mark 4, M1... for a variable MilDot one of the new Springfilds.

If you can get a copy of Plaster's "The Ultimate Sniper" there are a couple chapters that deal with Sniper Scopes that you may want to look at prior to decideding on what you want in a Scope and what Scope you want. Contact me via e-mail if you can't locate a copy.

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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
El Rojo,
On my 700 VLS (also in 308) I use a 3.5x10 VXIII and for my eyes & what I use the rifle for, it is just about perfect.

Some people do like more power, my wife has a 6.5x20 VXIII on a varmint rifle (223) and she shoots it set between 16 -20 almost every time. But when I shoot it I always "turn that power down". The heat rising & "apperant movement" bug me more than the target appearing smaller does.

A compromise between these 2 would probably be one of Leupolds "newer" 4.5x14 VXIII. This would also come about as close to being an answer your applications as any power range in a single scope could (jmho).
i.e. Hunting you want a large field of view, thus lower power, but varmint & silloute require as much power as you can get (or stand).

Of course, if I had the money I would really like to set up one of those LPS or Long Range Tactical models in the 4.5x14. Still, a thousand dollars is a thousand dollars & my accountant (pronounced Wife) just can't see this in the budget. <g>

Hope this helps & good shooting. k
 
Ya I have Plasters book and I was noting what he was saying about not really needing a scope over ten power. Still it would be nice to zoom in and get close.

I saw a guy who had one of the Springfield 3rd Gen 6x20's and I did notice the mil-dots were variable with the zoom. Having to be full power with the Leupold to use mil is a pretty crappy thing if you ask me. Might as well go with a duplex I would think. But what do you think of the springfield scope? I have that fixed 6x40 and it works ok, but Leupold sure seems to be the Sierra Hotel stuff!

I was also wondering about 40 vs 50 objective. I would sort of prefer the 40 since it is not going to rise up off the rifle 5 miles over the barrel and cheekrest. Hmmmm. All of those Leupold scopes make it so difficult to chose.

I was reading the Leupold catalog tonight and it did specify you could have the target knobs put on any scope. That would be nice. I would also like to have the side knobbed adjustible objective, reaching way up front like that just doesn't seem fun.

I gotta go watch police wildest police chases. Lets continue this some more later. Please feel free to keep up with the pros and cons. I have a feeling whatever scope I get, I will probably be a happy camper as long as I can keep shooting squirrels and coyotes.
 
Springfield scopes are optically on par with the Tasco scopes I have tried, in other words they are not worth the big $ that Springfield charges for them.

I use a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40LR M3 mil-dot (30mm tube) on my PSS. The M3 turrets are low profile but still allow for easy adjustment. technically the Leupold M3's aren't "ballistic cams" geared toward a specific bullet type but the elevation knob is a 1 MOA per click adjustment, the top row of numbers on the turret is geared toward a specific load but the bottom is marked in MOA clicks with numbers every 5 clicks. If the spacing comes out right in the post it looks something like this for the 308m dial, (175gr@2700fps)

1.2..3...4....5......6......7 - range x100m
0....5....10....15....20....25 - MOA clicks

But take the range markings with a grain of salt, I just paint over the range markings and leave the MOA marks. After selecting the load the rifle will fire I then put the TRUE range marks in place of the factory "close" range marks above the MOA marks. With a Badger Ordnance 20 MOA tapered base I can zero my rifle from 100-1300yd with 1 rotation of the turret, not the dozen full turns that would be required with a 1/4 MOA target turret. Best $680.00 I ever spent on optics!

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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.

[This message has been edited by Rex Feral (edited April 28, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rex Feral (edited April 28, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rex Feral (edited April 28, 2000).]
 
You could go with a duplex but then you lose the precise ranging capablilty.

As I said the dots come in very handy. My deer hunting stand is located in the middle of a clearing. On one side I can only shoot 100 yards, on the other side I can get out to 290. There is a "path" on the longer side that is right @ 200 yards out.

I set my scope for a 200 yard zero which give me about 3.4" "high" at 100 and 8.2" "low" @ 300. Guess what works out almost perfectly... the hold under/overs with the first MilDot above/below the cross hairs.

I Love MilDots.

If the Springfield Gen III had been out at the time that is what my AWP would be sporting. Since they weren't I got the Mark 4.

The AO on the side of the side of the scope is the only way to go. Alot less movement when adjusting it (which can be a great thing in certain situations!)

[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited April 28, 2000).]
 
Yes the M1 I was talking aobut getting was actually the Vari-X III 3.5-10x40LR M1 mil-dot, very similar to what Rex is talking about. I really like the looks of that III M3 like rex has. I just was sort of turned off my that cam system. Rex brings up a good point on just ignoring it or creating your own. What do you all think about 1 moa adjustments vs. 1/4?

I did a lot more studying while I was watching Wildest Police Videos and I have come up with these new choices.

#1: The Long Range Tactical Vari-X III 4.5-14x50.

#2: Vari-X III 6.5-20x50 Long Range Target.

Both of these have the high target knobs. What can you guys say of those high target knobs? You have to take off the covers to use them right? I don't know if I like them being so high and being covered like that.

Which brings me back to why I like the Vari-X III M1 and M3. The target knobs are large and well marked, but not real high. That is why I really like the looks of the M3, but I don't know what to make of the 1 MOA per click. Plus I would like to zoom in a little past 10. 14 would be good.

Next item: Illuminated Reticle. That Springfield Gen III had the illuminated reticle that was a green color that outlined then entire black of the cross hairs and mil dots. What about the Leupolds? Do they just illuminate the center of the cross hair like the catalog makes it look, or is it the entire reticle? 2nd: The Springfield reticle knob was on the side where the Leupold AO knob is. I like that. The Leupolds are right behind the zoom knob. That does not look good. It seems like it would become difficult to adjust your zoom with that knob sticking out of the top of the back of the scope right in front of the zoom ring.

So, I am now considering #1: The #1: The Long Range Tactical Vari-X III 4.5-14x50, Vari-X III 6.5-20x50 Long Range Target, Long Range Tactical Vari-X III 3.5x10 M1, and M3 (also with illuniated reticle or maybe not).

Four choices are not too bad. I really appreciate you all getting in on this discusion with me. As you can see I find it very informative and I am really enjoying just thinking about the next scope I want to buy. For those of you who are still young and single, stay that way for a while. The only accountant I have to check in with is my checkbook, and then there is already credit! It makes scope purchasing so much more flexible! The trade off is I don't have a loving wife to take care of me. One day I will amass a sufficient arsenal, and then I will hunt for a wife. I will have it all! Now I just need to find a girl who likes to shoot. I digress, thanks for your words and advice and please, by all means continue the discusion.
 
I have the 6.5X20X50 30mm LRT on a .300 mag. It comes with target knobs and side focus. It will give you more elevation adjustment for 1000yrd shooting than a normal scope. About $700 from SWFA.
The only thing you have to watch for with this scope is the large amout of shift in eye relief between 6.5 and 20X.

I also have the Tactical scope on a .223. Not enough X for me.
 
> What do you all think about 1 moa adjustments vs. 1/4?

For "presision" work go with the 1/4 clicks. The MOA ones are alright if you want to "limit" yourself to MOA.

> What can you guys say of those high target knobs? You have to take off the covers to use them right?

Don't know about those scopes but on my Mark 4 there are no covers on the target knobs... they themselves are just "large".

Plus I would like to zoom in a little past 10. 14 would be good.

Again... if your going to get a MilDot Reticle stay away from the Leupold for the reasons I mentioned. That is just my opinio of course. You may have a larger brain capasity then this Jarhead and will be able to remember the computation of converting what the Mils subtend at the different power settings.

> Do they just illuminate the center of the cross hair like the catalog makes it look, or is it the entire reticle?

Yes, at least the last time I looked through one.

> 2nd. It seems like it would become difficult to adjust your zoom <snip>

Not difficult... just a PITA.

> So, I am now considering #1: The #1: The Long Range Tactical Vari-X III 4.5-14x50, Vari-X III 6.5-20x50 Long Range Target, Long Range Tactical Vari-X III 3.5x10 M1, and M3 (also with illuniated reticle or maybe not).

Well, I've give you my opinions (re Vari v Fixed, MilDots, Illumination, etc)(and we all know what opinios are like). All in all it is going to be a personel choice. Each Scope talked about has its +s & -s depending on your individual view. Really any one of the scopes you mentioned will work just fine, as would some others, for the application you specified. It is now up to you to pick. ;)
 
The M3 has 1 MOA clicks on the elevation and 1/2 MOA clicks on the windage. The 1 MOA clicks on elevation allow me to adjust from 100yd to 1300yd with ONE full rotation on the dial. If you are going to be engaging targets fairly rapidly at varying ranges (like woodchucks) you can't beat the M3 turrets. It's easy to lose count of your clicks and full rotations or misread the level lines in an M1 type turret when you are shooting multiple targets at different ranges.

With 1 MOA elevation clicks you do give up some precision in your zero, but the maximum your POI can differ from your POA is:
1/2 MOA or .5"@100yd, 1"@200yd, 1.5"@300yd, 2"@400yd, etc.

The only drawback to this scope is once you zero it probably will have only enough internal adjustment left to reach about 750yd with a non-tapered base, if you shoot 168gr@2700fps. With the Badger Ordnance tapered base I use I can reach 1300yd.

There is a comprehensive review of this and many other scopes at:

www.snipercountry.com

Look for the "In Review" link on the title page.

I hope this helps, if you have any other questions, feel free to e-mail me directly.

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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.

[This message has been edited by Rex Feral (edited April 29, 2000).]
 
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