Please educate me on the following

[Viper99]

Hello all,

Totally new to rifles and the only thing I know is that I want some for my limited gun collection.

But first, I have some questions about them.

1. Why Bolt action vs lever vs semi-automatic?

I would think that everyone would prefer semi-automatic due to their simplicity and ease of use.

Why would you choose bolt? Is there a logical reason?

Same question for lever action.

What I want in the near future? A .22 to start off with but I would like it to be semi-automatic and military style. Thinking of the Ruger SR22 or SW M&P 15-22. Not sure which as I read a lot of good things on both.

What do I own now?
Ruger mkIII 22/45, Ruger MKIII Hunter, Ruger LCP, Sig P239 9mm, SA XDm 9mm, Glock G27, unfired 20+ year old Moosberg 12 gauge shotgun.

Intended purpose of rifles? for now range, safe queens. It is more of "I want" rather than I need. Eventually I want the .22, a .556 and a .762.

Have also thought about the Beretta CX4 Storm which fires regular 9mm rounds. Is this any good?

Thanks You in advance for sharing your knowledge with me.

 

[Ozzieman]

My question is, do you really want to learn to shoot or just plink. And there is nothing wrong with ether.
My first suggestion for a 22 is a good bolt action mag or tube feed gun. Semi autos tent to make newer shooters put rounds down range faster and wait less times between shots. Your concentration is gone and your shot management is poor.
The reason I recommend a good bolt 22 is that you have to take time between shoots, and concentrate more on shot placement that just putting rounds down range.
A Ruger 10-22 is a great learning tool as long as you don’t get into the emptying magazines at a high rate. This does nothing for you or the gun.
If you have the money and can afford it I would recommend a good 22 from CMP. They have some great 22 Kimber for a good price. These are hard guns to beat.
http://www.thecmp.org/22targetsurplus.htm

For the Beretta Storm Carbine in 9mm, I have one with an aim-point on it. If you do search with my name and the Storm carbine you can read some of what I have written concerning loading for one.
The gun has its limitations, But it’s also one of the best 9mm carbines I have ever owned or shot and that included a semi PM5 Clone. Just be sure to pick the magazine you want it in. I would suggest getting the carbine with the 92 mag so you can get larger capacity.

 

[LordTio3]

I'll take the other side of this question.

Consider the question, "Why aren't there a lot of .44 Magnum or .357 Magnum Semi-Autos?"

The answer is, Because they have to feed, and the semi-automatic action doesn't function well when you add that much power behind a round. For this reason, Bolt and Lever Action rifles can generally handle much more powerful loads accurately than many semi-autos; because of the difficulty of tuning the action for powerful loads. And with rifles, the more powerful the load and the more mass the projectile has, the more ballistically efficient it is; which translates to less math to do.

Secondly, lever actions are just cool. For nostalgic reasons, people love shooting and owning them because they are part of our nation's history. That, and the loads that they are chambered for (44 mag, 45lc, 45-70, 30-30, etc...) are still effective rounds for hunting, defense, and just about anything else.

Next is accuracy. While semi-auto rifles (AK's, AR-15, AR-10, M1, etc...) are by no means inaccurate firearms. But do you ever see someone shooting an AR-15 at 1000 yards? 2000? Beyond? This is because it is quite easy to alter a bolt-action rifle to maximize accuracy. Basically all a bolt-action is, is the barrel, the action, the stock, and an optic (if desired). There aren't any gas ports, gas tubes, pistons, bolt carrier groups, etc... The less moving parts you have, the easier it is to accurize a rifle by free floating the barrel, bedding the stock, tightening the action, etc...

Finally is cost. I'm not saying you can't do all of these things (accurize, tune the action, utilize powerful loads) in a semi-automatic rifle (Look at the Barrett M82), but cost becomes a very prominent factor (Look at the Barrett M82 ~$8000-$10000).

When you're talking about a rifle that has 3 or 4 main parts, you can make it really cheap by comparison to a rifle that has 12 moving and 38 stationary parts that all have to work reliably together. You can take $700 and go buy a .308 Savage 12 with a decent optic and put rounds on target at 1000 yards that are really going to cause some damage if you know what you're doing. Can you say the same for a semi-auto?

I hope this helps a little.

~LT

 

[carguychris]

The major advantage of most common bolt-actions over most common lever-actions is that most bolt-action rifles feed from a box magazine, so they can use spitzer bullets, i.e. bullets with a pointed tip. These bullets are more aerodynamically efficient, allowing them to hit harder and shoot flatter at long range. Most lever-actions use a tubular magazine; in a centerfire rifle, the tip of each bullet rests on the primer of the cartridge in front of it, so if the rifle is jostled hard enough, one or more cartridges may discharge inside the magazine, causing a really nasty chain-reaction explosion. Consequently, rifles with tubular magazines must use rimfire cartridges or round-nosed or flat-pointed bullets for safety.

Please note that tubular-magazine bolt-actions and box-magazine lever-actions exist, so there are exceptions to this rule.

Another advantage of a bolt-action over most lever-actions and semi-autos is that the feed mechanism is relatively simple, foolproof, lightweight, and inexpensive to manufacture. Consequently, a rifle manufacturer offering a bolt-action at a low price can put more money into accuracy-enhancing features than a gunmaker offering a lever or semi-auto for the same price. This is why cheap bolt-actions will generally outshoot cheap lever-actions or semi-autos. This becomes less true as the price tag increases and the point of diminishing returns is approached regarding accuracy enhancements.

The lighter weight of bolt-actions also allows them to accommodate very high-powered cartridges without becoming excessively heavy and difficult to handle in the field. This is why the 8mm/.318"-caliber and larger category is largely the domain of bolt-actions and single-shots.

The major disadvantage of semi-autos is that the feed mechanism will generally only handle cartridges within a certain power range. Cartridges outside this range may not cycle properly. This makes them relatively inflexible, although most newer designs will cycle a variety of loads more reliably than many older designs. This explains why some older semi-auto cartridges have fallen into disuse; some rifle designs will basically only cycle ONE load reliably, and most sportsmen preferred a rifle capable of handling more of a variety.

Mandatory Disclaimer: This post contains many broad generalizations for the sake of brevity. Exceptions exist. Caveat emptor.

 

[Viper99]

Thank You guys, you're answers were great and things are way more clear now.

Ozzieman, I want both but where I live I am limited to indoor ranges unless I want to travel far for an outdoor range.

LordTio3 /carguychris, thanks for your great explanations.

Carguychris, you mention rifles capable of firing different loads?

regards,

 

[Skans]

I would think that everyone would prefer semi-automatic due to their simplicity and ease of use.

For hunting, I prefer bolt action. Practically speaking, you are usually only going to get one shot. Bolt actions are extremely reliable, and naturally accurate. They are quiet. They are sleek - no box magazines to fool with, to get caught on stuff, poke you in the back, get lost, or rattle. They are easy to clean - especially when they get wet....and they will get wet.

I like semi-auto rifles, but not for hunting.

I only have one lever action rifle - some folks can shoot them real fast, but other than for nostalgia, I'm not really into them. So, for me, its between bolt action and semi-auto. If you are potentially shooting at multiple targets, then I'd go with semi-auto. If you are shooting at only one target at a time, then there I prefer bolt action.

 

[PawPaw]

you mention rifles capable of firing different loads?

Yeah, different loads. It's easy to load a cartridge to one of several power levels, depending on what you want to do. For example, in the .30-30 Winchester, I routinely load to several different power levels by varying the powder and the bullet. I've got three loads in that caliber that I like to play with. The first is a low-powered load that uses Unique and a 115 grain bullet. The bullet travels at about 800 fps and is very comfortable to shoot. Not as much recoil as a .22 LR. The second load uses a 170 grain cast bullet and runs about 1800 fps. This is my standard thick-woods load. The third load in this caliber uses full-house powder and a 170 grain jacketed bullet at 2200 fps.

The most common common cartridge that uses multiple power loads is the old .45-70. It's commonly loaded to one of three power levels, depending on the needs or the shooter.

 

[carguychris]

Carguychris, you mention rifles capable of firing different loads?

In addition to PawPaw's answer, I'll give you a little more detail about the rifles themselves.

Semi-auto rifles generally use one of two fundamental operating systems: recoil operation, which harnesses to the recoil or "kick" of the cartridge, and gas operation, which taps the expanding hot gases generated by the burning powder to move the bolt.

Recoil operation relies on the cartridge providing a certain amount of recoil to move the bolt. Recoil-operated guns are mechanically simple and therefore inexpensive, and this system tends to be more forgiving of different power levels than gas operation, but practical concerns limit it to low-powered cartridges because higher-powered cartridges would require excessively heavy reciprocating parts.

AFAIK all modern semi-auto rimfire rifles use recoil operation. Furthermore, modern semi-auto .22LR designs such as the Ruger 10/22, Remington 597, and Marlin Model 60 will cycle pretty much any type of .22LR ammo reliably except specialized primer-only low-noise target loads.

Gas operation taps the expanding hot gases generated by the igniting powder, usually through a hole near the muzzle connected to either a separate piston or to the bolt itself. (The advantages of each of these types is a separate topic.) Gas systems more easily accommodate high-powered cartridges because only a small percentage of the gas needs to be used, but changing the type and amount of powder- and sometimes even changing the bullet weight- can change the pressure and velocity of the gas entering the port and cause cycling problems.

Gas operation also makes the rifle more mechanically complex, and all gas systems require periodic disassembly and cleaning, although extremely foolproof and maintenance-free systems have been designed- Exhibit A: the Kalashnikov.

Bolt-actions and lever-actions, on the other hand, are cycled manually by the operator. The power level of the cartridge is entirely irrelevant to reliable operation, assuming that it's adequate to make the bullet leave the barrel.

Mandatory Disclaimer: More broad generalities above.

 

[chadstrickland]

Knowledgeable thread...another thing I would like to add..is that when u lay down in the prone position with a bolt or semi automatic rifle you don't have to alter your position between shots however with a lever action you would have to take your eye off target to work the action...if you are laying flat on the groud...it is a difference that matters greatly to me

 

[603Country]

Maybe the reasons for my personal rifle transition will be of interest. I worked through all of that lever/auto/bolt question in my own time, over years. I started with a lever action Marlin 336 in 35 Remington. It was great. Quite accurate and easy to carry. Ten years later I was wanting more range, and the round nosed 35 Rem bullets wouldn't give me that. So the next rifle was a BAR in 270 Winchester, and I started reloading for that rifle. It was very accurate with just the right loads, but it was heavy, a bother to clean, and the bore had to be cleaned from the muzzle. It seemed to be a magnet for gritty dust and sand. From there I went to a Remington 700 in 270. Great rifle that was easier to clean and I could shoot hotter loads than the BAR would handle. After that I wanted a better bolt gun and got a Sako in 270. That rifle will never be sold while I'm alive. All that being said, I still own lever actions and bolt actions, but no semi-auto (not even the Black Rifle) and no desire for one.