Playing Dead as Self defense - examples

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Double Naught Spy

New member
I realize that this is a controversial subject and an option nobody would feel very confident about using in a shooting situation, but I noticed that one of the participants at Giffords' event stated that is exactly what he did and it kept him safe and he participated in controlling the shooter.

At VT, playing dead was used by many of the students. Cho did reshoot several people, but others he left alone. The Luby's reshot several folks, but playing dead worked for at least one.

Anyway, the more I got into searching articles, the more surprised I was about the number of places/events where it has been used and used successfully.

From what I can glean from the information, much of it being incomplete and/or not presented in comparable manners between the articles, playing dead has its greatest advantage when the shooter basically isn't stuck or trapped with the victims. Cho seemed to reshoot many victims out of frustration of not being able to proceed to new rooms to shoot new people.

If the shooting situation is one where the shooter has free movement and wants a chance to get at others, the shooter isn't as likely to spend too much time making sure his/her victims are dead. If there are enough people present and the shooter wants to move on, then s/he isn't likely to verify that in fact everyone on the ground has actually been shot.

For example, the day trader in Georgia took somewhat linear routes through two different trading firms seeking out people and didn't spend time verifying his work. Folks in these situations sometimes were able to make good on the ploy and effected escapes, calling 911, and/or helping others.

Please note that I am not suggesting that this is a good method for self defense, that I would want to use it, or anything of that nature. I am just pointing out that it is a method that has worked at many shootings.

Okay, here are most of the links...

At the Giffords' shooting... http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/latest_news.php?nid=27825

NY immigration center shooting...http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-06/...sses-immigrants-fulbright-scholar?_s=PM:CRIME

VT shooting...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549204/I-played-dead-to-fool-gunman-says-Briton.html
http://www.roanoke.com/vtvictims/wb/113860
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t116951.html

Columbine...
http://www.gazette.com/entertainment/columbine-52013-played-wanted.html
http://acolumbinesite.com/victim/injured2.htmlOn a related topic
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/10/heroes.arizona.shooting/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnnConsidered to be a hero for hitting the Giffords' shooter with a chair.http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/10/heroes.arizona.shooting/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

UT sniper... http://business.highbeam.com/410545...tes-august-1-1966-charles-whitman-climbed-top

Colorado Department of Transportation...
http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellit...goBlobs&blobwhere=1251616382821&ssbinary=true

Fort Hood...
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=827960

Wisconsin Massacre...
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=827960
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/29298924.html

Cross Plains murder...http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/45734927.html

Georgia daytrader spree...
http://www.ajr.org/article.asp?id=800

Brooklyn Bodega...
http://gothamist.com/2009/03/27/survivor_in_bodega_shooting_played.php

Hungerford Massacre...
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/michael_ryan/6.html

Pittsburgh Health Club...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/08/earlyshow/main5226816.shtml

ABB Plant...
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_fe561a72-f26d-11df-950f-0017a4a78c22.html

Home invasion...
http://www.thetandd.com/news/local/article_50fc2300-dbdc-11df-9c32-001cc4c002e0.html

Beecher/Lowelll Spree...
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/lowell/article_6d36a335-e0c4-5758-b134-b0fd828ccbe8.html

Alcatraz...
http://www.sfgenealogy.com/sf/history/sfoealcb.htm

Larimer shooting...
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11007/1116132-53.stm

Triple shooting...
http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story/New-details-in-triple-shooting/kbnLtkaQL0C47LwGg_tqgw.cspx

NIU...
http://www.esquire.com/features/steven-kazmierczak-0808-8

Red Lake Senior High School...
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=34450

Luby's...
http://books.google.com/books?id=zR...d=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=played dead&f=false
 
It might in a situation where someone comes in and starts shooting the place up randomly like a bank but if the BG ever makes eye contact with you it could be a bad idea.
 
If you want to play dead, go for it. I can't even fake my 7 year old kid out that I'm sleeping when I'm not. With people shooting, yelling and screaming - I don't think that my brain, body or either will permit me to engage in this tactic.
 
If I am unarmed, and there is no escape, well maybe playing dead would be the only valid solution.

I sure hope that is not the situation cause alot of people who played dead… were.

Deaf
 
there is actually a a book written on the subject called, The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes - and Why, that explores the different reactions people have to extreme duress such as a disaster like the WTC or a gunfight. Playing dead IIRC is more of an involuntary reaction based in instinct rater than a thought out plan. Here is a small excerpt from the book that might interest you guys. http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=6682333&page=1 Actually pretty interesting stuff.
 
If I am unarmed, and there is no escape, well maybe playing dead would be the only valid solution.

I sure hope that is not the situation cause alot of people who played dead… were.
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Right, and those dead people actually provide credibility for those only playing dead.

playing dead may lead to a permanent role. food for thought
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Okay, but any strategy or tactic used in such a situation may make you permanently dead. Rushing the shooter can get you dead. Trying to hide can get you dead. Trying to run can get you dead. Fighting back can get you dead. Heck, just being in such a situation can get you dead

As noted in the examples in this thread, playing dead has kept people from getting shot or kept them from getting shot as much.

Playing dead IIRC is more of an involuntary reaction based in instinct rater than a thought out plan.
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The author may have said that playing dead is an involuntary reaction based on instinct and hence not a thought out plan, but that could also be claimed for the fight or flight response. These are instinctual options, but not involuntary. Moreover, there are lots of examples of people voluntarily playing dead by choice.

If playing dead is involuntary, then what you are talking about is fainting.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=mcdonald's+massacre+play+dead&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
 
Playing dead may or may not work in whatever situation but the guarntee is that you no longer have control over your own destiny except for possibly actually joining the dead.

Once you commit to playing dead you better be able to pull of the act of appearing dead and the longer the BG is there the harder thats going to be as you have to breath at some point.

For myself if someones trying to give me a dirt nap I will use all means at my disposal to resist doing so but playing dead will not be among the choice I make. The BGs count on people bending to there will, for me they can have whatever property or possessions but not my life and not the life of my family.
 
Double,

Thanks for sharing the data. It is always interesting to read and learn about these kinds of instances.

At some point you have to play the cards that have been thrown your way. I don’t think there is anything wrong with playing dead, especially if that is the only option that one has. In other words, you have no other viable options. Playing dead would not be my first choice, and I am not necessarily recommending it either. I am however saying that I do not doubt that a lot of the people that were at these tragic events simply had no other choice but play dead. If an individual is locked in a room full of people that are being executed and there is no exit or way to properly defend their person, rushing the shooter head on from 30-40 feet away is not a good idea. In an instance where there is a lot of distance between an individual and threat it just might be an option worth considering... In the same token, I don’t think dropping down to play dead when you’re within arm’s reach is a good idea either. These are things that everyone needs to think about. I personally am not going to lie down and play dead unless I have no other options. If I am within rushing distance you better believe I am going to try to get to the threat with as much force and brutality as I can gather in that moment.
 
I don't consider playing dead a defense at all. I would worry that by the time I realized that the threat was standing over me it would be too late to move - so you would take the bullet anyway. I want to keep myself at least 15 yards from the threat, as I watch folks at the range shoot at that distance and miss a stationary target often... most folks can hit at 7 and 10 but when you get out to 15 and beyond it does take a bit more skill. Keeping distance and moving would be my defense if I were unarmed or unable to return fire.

God help us if playing dead is the last defense method our government 'allows us' to legally use. The criminals will just love it.
 
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I don't consider playing dead a defense at all.
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Playing dead isn't doing nothing. It is a form of defense. It is an active form of deception that does not draw attention to you and that helps keep the shooter from recognizing you as a threat.

I would worry that by the time I realized that the threat was standing over me it would be too late to move -
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If you go back and read the examples, it was already too late to move at the point people opted to play dead.

I want to keep myself at least 15 yards from the threat
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Why set the distance so close? Personally, I would never want to be anywhere near a threat at all. However, the distance issue isn't one very many of the folks had much control over.

Keeping distance and moving would be my defense if I were unarmed or unable to return fire.
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Distance and moving are excellent options, if you have them. Running away has worked for a lot of people. Where do you run when you are in a room with an active shooter? In a circle? What if you are already wounded?

I'd rather go down fighting than risk getting killed doing nothing!
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Nobody is saying that you can't fight, and the goal is to not go down at all.

At what point was Loughner attacked? He was attacked when he ran out of ammo and needed to reload. What were the people who attacked him doing while he was shooting everybody he could? They were engaging in behaviors that did not involve fighting back. They were engaged in behaviors that many folks might even consider to be cowardly, or smart, depending on your perspective. Instead of fighting, they were ducking, running, hiding, and playing dead. In short, they were engaging in behaviors to improve their chances for survival until which time they could do something else. They were trying to keep from getting killed, but they weren't fighting. As Al Gratia and some VT students found out, rushing a guy with a loaded gun that is willing to shoot is a way to get shot.

The AZ folks are now all heroes, right, heralded as brave people who took down a mass murderer, disarmed him, and kept him restrained. They were able to do that because of the fact they engaged in the behaviors that they did, which were not fighting while the shooter was trying kill them. In other words, they utilized their time most effectively given their options. They increased their chances for survival by choosing when to fight and when not to fight.
 
I'd rather go down fighting than risk getting killed doing nothing!
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Okay, in many of these events, the people have already gone down, sometimes gravely wounded, before they had a chance to fight. Some examples follow here, but not all them.

I realize we all have plans on how we will mount our defenses when terrible acts occur on us. The problem is, when we have to fight back isn't always at times when we are in our most fit, alert, and capable conditions. We usually don't get a chance to choose when attacks will come or in what form. Right now at this moment, are you planning for what you will do if you get kidnapped, thrown in a trunk, shot, set on fire, and chased into the woods by your would-be killer? What defense do you think you are going to mount when your first comprehension of something being wrong is the gunshot to the back of your head that sends you to the ground? Maybe you female aerobics instructor, pregnant, and get shot twice in the upper body and find your self on the floor. You have a broken shoulder blade and a punctured lung. What is your course of action now? Just how much fight do you have in you? How are you going to overcome your injuries which have already had a negative physical impact on your health so that you can fight and survive against a person or persons who are stronger and better armed?

Jose Collazo played dead after being shot by Platt and Matix and as a result did survive.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&sig=AHIEtbSBBXrJno7bbpk0AVh-S6P4p_oaOA&pli=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

This guy played dead as part of a home invasion robbery...
http://www2.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=4939

Playing dead worked at the 1990 Queens Wendy's massacre...
http://www2.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=4939

Customer played dead after being shot in the head. No doubt folks would rather fight than do nothing and want to stay away from the bad guys, but when somebody shoots you in the back of the head and that is your first indication that you are in trouble, playing dead may be a very good idea...
http://crimeindetroit.com/Documents/Store's Video is Chilling Evidence - 4 Dead, 2 Injured.pdf

Overpowered and outnumbered, played dead...
http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/suspects-strangle-couple-killing-man

When you are shot twice and are pregnant, wearing your exercise clothes only, maybe going toe-to-toe with the bad guy isn't your best bet for suvival, but playing dead helped make this lady one of the survivors of the LA Fitness aerobics class shooting.
http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-38...5MjE4Lzk4OTAzMi01Ny5zdG0/Y21waWQ9bmV3cy54bWw=

The women played dead after their throats were slit and survived. The man was shot several times, escaped from a freezer, fought with the robbers, and broke out a window to escape, only to die later.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...AT-FATHER-AND-SON-FOR-AGGRAVATED-ROBBERY.html

Shot, set on fire, chased down...played dead and survived...
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/moore1137.htm


It's just an option to consider. Ruling out options for self defense before you know what sort of conflict you will be in may not be the best of ideas.
 
last resort

also:

A)can help if there are multiple victims in a bigger crime scene w/more targets

B)if you can't stop an attack+its a given its gonna continue until your dead(example only- being stabbed over&over)
 
Ratios

For those who want to "play dead" it would probably be easier if you were actually shot, otherwise if the BG doesn't see BLOOD, you'll be dead soon enough.

Every situation is different but the ratio of BG to victims is important. If one BG is randomly shooting...let's say 5 or less people...BG will probably know who he shot. Play dead, you're dead. If there are many people (let's say 10+) and the BG is randomly shooting, chances are BG will lose track of who got hit in the confusion. But if you're in a small space... Either way, you're taking the chance that the BG isn't smart enough to shoot you more than once.

If ALL people made an IMMEDIATE rush at the BG (or terrorist), the BG would probably be confused for a second and be subdued. Yes, in this scenario too, someone will get shot but at least the "victims" are in control, not the BG. Think about how many more people would have died if some people didn't attack the BG in the latest incident.

We live in "that" kind of world now (Israelis live it every day), so it is always good to be alert but not paranoid.

The first rule in a knife fight...you will get hurt. Your frame of mind is everything. I don't fear death because my hope is in the next life...at the same time, I don't go looking for death either ;) Fear of death is the real enemy. Nevertheless, it's easy being an armchair quarterback, it's another thing being in the situation, so I wouldn't want to judge what others want to do.
 
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Playing dead gives the initiative to the BG and makes it highly likely that you can no longer effectively observe the BG as open moving eyes indicates something other than dead.

Even the barely looking through eyelashes or whatever one might comeup with to keep an eye on a BG could be questionable.

I still think the longer a BG is at a given location the greater the risk given a already insanely risky position.

Obviously this tactic has worked and will pobably will continue to work for some people, I will not be among them.

Certainly if 40 BGs storm XXXmart as one of us stands in the check out line many of us may not have the case or two of ammo required on hand to combat the situation. For my part I guess I would have to try settling for a rambo size :rolleyes: 25 or 26 depending on how good I throw the gun after the first 25 rounds.
 
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I think that in a lot of cases playing dead might be the best thing you can do. It's easier for a person to play day then rush head on towards a gunmen. I know a lot of people on this forum talk about how they'd rush and tackle the gunmen because they'd rather go down fighting but the reality is that very few people have the courage or the opportunity to actually do that. I'd like to think that I would rush and tackle an active shooter if I had the opportunity but realistically I'd probably be so scared and in such shock that I wouldn't be able to.

Just look at the majority of these mass shootings, the vast majority of the time the shooting only ends once the shooter commits suicide not when someone unarmed overpowers them. A lot of times the victims of these shootings never even realized what happened before it's too late. I remember reading about the shooting at a McDonald in San Ysidro in 1984 which killed 21 people and wounded another 19. Many of the victims were still holding trays and sitting at their seats.
 
I hear playing dead works against bears, too.
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Maybe with sows protecting cubs that willno longer see you as a threat if they think you dead, but not when its a boar and it is stalking you as prey. Play dead, when it is a boar hunting for food, good chance to get eaten.

As for playing dead in a life or death shooting situation, I don't know if I would ever do it. Maybe if scared enough, or incapacitated, so I could not to act otherwise. I am hopeful I would choose another option than to just leave my survival to chance or luck or to the mercy of a bad guy than to actively try to save myself and stop the threat or at least get away from it.

All the best,
GB
 
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