Picture:Backstrap cutting, Ruger: Comments..?
- Thread starter NOWUS
- Start date
NOWUS,
I think that is a TOPstrap, not a backstrap. People reading the subject on this forum probably think you are writing about a grip modification and may not read your thread.
I don't KNOW whether your gun is still safe to shoot with that much cutting. I THINK it probably is because the steel is malleable and the gas cutting does not produce a sharp crack-like inner tip to the indentation it makes in the steel. So, the stress-concentration effect may not be significant and there is plenty of steel left for the unconcentrated stress level. HOWEVER, the photo is hard to interpret, and it is NOT CLEAR that there is not some stress-induced cracking in the center of the cut area. IF there is any appearance of a CRACK, as well as a cut, then the gun is no longer safe because the metal is starting to fail.
WHAT REALLY INTERESTS ME is to find out what loads produced that cutting in your gun. What cartridge does your revolver shoot and what loads were you shooting in it? (The rest of us don't want to get the effect you have, so please help us learn from your experience.)
SL1
I think that is a TOPstrap, not a backstrap. People reading the subject on this forum probably think you are writing about a grip modification and may not read your thread.
I don't KNOW whether your gun is still safe to shoot with that much cutting. I THINK it probably is because the steel is malleable and the gas cutting does not produce a sharp crack-like inner tip to the indentation it makes in the steel. So, the stress-concentration effect may not be significant and there is plenty of steel left for the unconcentrated stress level. HOWEVER, the photo is hard to interpret, and it is NOT CLEAR that there is not some stress-induced cracking in the center of the cut area. IF there is any appearance of a CRACK, as well as a cut, then the gun is no longer safe because the metal is starting to fail.
WHAT REALLY INTERESTS ME is to find out what loads produced that cutting in your gun. What cartridge does your revolver shoot and what loads were you shooting in it? (The rest of us don't want to get the effect you have, so please help us learn from your experience.)
SL1
Whatever those loads are I would limit using them because they are somewhat abusive to your revolver. The cutting of the topstrap is actually quite common in .357 revolvers and normally will stop after awhile. What is of concern is the erosion of the forcing cone. I thoroughly trashed a new GP by shooting lots of 125 gr. Blue Dot loads when I was young and dumb.The forcing cone is burned, carburized and brittle now. Cracks in forcing cone can work through and ruin the barrel. I don't think your in much danger of blowing up the gun but even Rugers which are built like tanks can be abused and have their normal lifespan shortened. We are interested in the loads you are using.
Gee, guess why Ruger dropped the .357 Max chambering and the ammo companies took the load off the market.
Years ago, both S&W and Colt cut a hollow "fingernail" in that area to let the gas dissipate and prevent cutting. They found that the flame cutting went to a certain point and stopped, so they discontinued the cutout in the interest of cost reduction. But that was for the .357 Magnum; the .357 Max was another ball game, and I don't know its problems. Only Ruger (and maybe one other company) ever chambered it.
Jim
Years ago, both S&W and Colt cut a hollow "fingernail" in that area to let the gas dissipate and prevent cutting. They found that the flame cutting went to a certain point and stopped, so they discontinued the cutout in the interest of cost reduction. But that was for the .357 Magnum; the .357 Max was another ball game, and I don't know its problems. Only Ruger (and maybe one other company) ever chambered it.
Jim
Both Dan Wesson and Ruger stopped chambering the 357 Maximum because of the problem described. The high pressure gases coming out of the barrel-cylinder gap focus a lot of high-temperature gases in a very small area, giving the results you see. Like Jim Keenan said, it usually goes to a certain depth and then stops, but nothing I ever read addressed the issue of whether or not this was a real or perceived safety issue. I know several people who still shoot their 357 Maximum revolvers, but it's a sometimes thing, not a steady every week thing anymore.
On the other hand, if you really love the cartridge, TC still offered the 357 Maximum in a Contender barrel last time I looked.
On the other hand, if you really love the cartridge, TC still offered the 357 Maximum in a Contender barrel last time I looked.
dakotashooter2
New member
I seem to recall that stoppage of production of the 357 max was more due to public perception than actual danger caused. It was the first cartridge that produced such a noticable cut even though it was later found to be of little or no risk, but you'd have thought the sky was falling. If you have doubts call Ruger and see if they will evaluate it for you.
Nowus,
The topstrap cutting problem with the .357 Maximum is blamed on a large case that uses too much slow burning powder, creating an unusally high pressure, unusually hot, unusually long-duration jet of gas through the cylindr gap. I'm waiting for the new .460 S&Ws to show the same thing. They are even longer and use ther same powders.
If you handload, you should be able to use faster powders and lighter loads to get .357 Mag or .38 Special +P performance from .357 Maximim cases. That should not cut the top strap. Then, when you really need .357 maximum performance, you can fire a few of those (at deer or whatever).
SL1
The topstrap cutting problem with the .357 Maximum is blamed on a large case that uses too much slow burning powder, creating an unusally high pressure, unusually hot, unusually long-duration jet of gas through the cylindr gap. I'm waiting for the new .460 S&Ws to show the same thing. They are even longer and use ther same powders.
If you handload, you should be able to use faster powders and lighter loads to get .357 Mag or .38 Special +P performance from .357 Maximim cases. That should not cut the top strap. Then, when you really need .357 maximum performance, you can fire a few of those (at deer or whatever).
SL1
I use the gun for Deer Hunting ( when I walk ),
I try to fire at least 50 rounds a year to stay proficient with the
Gun and the 'Load' ( it is quite sensitive to elevation depending
on Load ). I would not consider huntng with a handgun if I did not feel
confident in bullet placement....
I have been using Vitvouri powder the last few years ( ?~150 rounds),
The cutting seemed to accelerate somewhat...
Ruger wanted to buy or swap the gun $450 us or Redhawk/blackhawk,
Did not seem like a good deal,,,,
I will probably buy a 41mag to replace it,
I was hoping someone would know of a good Ruger 'Smith' in the SE
that could give me an opinion...
Thanks all..
I try to fire at least 50 rounds a year to stay proficient with the
Gun and the 'Load' ( it is quite sensitive to elevation depending
on Load ). I would not consider huntng with a handgun if I did not feel
confident in bullet placement....
I have been using Vitvouri powder the last few years ( ?~150 rounds),
The cutting seemed to accelerate somewhat...
Ruger wanted to buy or swap the gun $450 us or Redhawk/blackhawk,
Did not seem like a good deal,,,,
I will probably buy a 41mag to replace it,
I was hoping someone would know of a good Ruger 'Smith' in the SE
that could give me an opinion...
Thanks all..
Mauser Rat
New member
I can't believe what I learn in here....
I hope that this is not thread jumping but.....Thanks again for all of the knowledgable answers. It amazes me what I can learn on this forum by watching certain threads/posters.
I am on the road now and will have to rely on the web for the characteristics/size of that case rather than my library, but the first thing that occurred to me upon reading several of your answers was: "Is any of this behavior reflected in the casing? Do the casings exhibit exceptionally short life/lots of obvious visual damage when reloading the same casing over and over? Is that "slow burning....lots of powder volume" an issue with any other casings such as the .44 mag with H110 or Varget or something like that?" because when I first started reading, my first reaction was a FAST powder that burns hot and intensely for a short time would do that (It still amazes me how wrong I am sometimes).
I run into stress raisers in other parts of my life and I was wondering whether the "flame" softens/anneals the topstrap which relieves some of the damage that I would expect from that kind of cutting? It does not sound like this has resulted from a huge amount of brass in this case so that each incident (firing) must be a fairly stressful event for the weapon?
I hope that this is not thread jumping but.....Thanks again for all of the knowledgable answers. It amazes me what I can learn on this forum by watching certain threads/posters.
I am on the road now and will have to rely on the web for the characteristics/size of that case rather than my library, but the first thing that occurred to me upon reading several of your answers was: "Is any of this behavior reflected in the casing? Do the casings exhibit exceptionally short life/lots of obvious visual damage when reloading the same casing over and over? Is that "slow burning....lots of powder volume" an issue with any other casings such as the .44 mag with H110 or Varget or something like that?" because when I first started reading, my first reaction was a FAST powder that burns hot and intensely for a short time would do that (It still amazes me how wrong I am sometimes).
I run into stress raisers in other parts of my life and I was wondering whether the "flame" softens/anneals the topstrap which relieves some of the damage that I would expect from that kind of cutting? It does not sound like this has resulted from a huge amount of brass in this case so that each incident (firing) must be a fairly stressful event for the weapon?
Ref to Pencil: My understanding, On Metal subject to Extreme Heat,
that a pencil mark would concentrate heat and cause metal failure
Ref Fast vs slow: ??? Thought fast ( hot ) powders would accelerate
The Top strap cutting
Ref Brass: Rem Fact, I get splits on first firing,
Also Splits on REM Factory Loaded rounds..
OLD Federal Factory Brass Has Had Many reloads with no problems,
MO: R-P Brass is not very good...
that a pencil mark would concentrate heat and cause metal failure
Ref Fast vs slow: ??? Thought fast ( hot ) powders would accelerate
The Top strap cutting
Ref Brass: Rem Fact, I get splits on first firing,
Also Splits on REM Factory Loaded rounds..
OLD Federal Factory Brass Has Had Many reloads with no problems,
MO: R-P Brass is not very good...
Fast vs Slow powders
The accepted (not PROVEN) reason for the extensive topstrap cutting in the .357 Maximum is a combination of more powder, slower powder, and higher chamber pressure than the .357 Magnum. For example, the Magnum shoots 158 gr bullets with 16.6 gr of WW 296 with a chamber pressure of about 40,000 CUP. The Maximum shoots 180 gr bullets with 27 gr of AA 1680 (or 23 gr of 296) at a chamber pressure of 48,000 CUP.
Loading about 17 grains of powder such as 2400 behind 158 or 180 grain bullets in the Maximum will get you down to pressures and performance of the Magnum. Because it produces about as much gas at about the same pressure as the magnum, it SHOULD produce only about as much topstrap cutting as seen in the Magnum. The idea of faster powders is to produce the proper pressure at lower loading densities that produce less total combustion gas. There are other factors, such as flame temperatures that are said to be lower for ball powders (296 and 1680) than for flake powders (2400), but both are hot enough to do damage if there is enough gas volume at enough pressure when it is spraying the topstrap through the cylinder gap.
SL1
The accepted (not PROVEN) reason for the extensive topstrap cutting in the .357 Maximum is a combination of more powder, slower powder, and higher chamber pressure than the .357 Magnum. For example, the Magnum shoots 158 gr bullets with 16.6 gr of WW 296 with a chamber pressure of about 40,000 CUP. The Maximum shoots 180 gr bullets with 27 gr of AA 1680 (or 23 gr of 296) at a chamber pressure of 48,000 CUP.
Loading about 17 grains of powder such as 2400 behind 158 or 180 grain bullets in the Maximum will get you down to pressures and performance of the Magnum. Because it produces about as much gas at about the same pressure as the magnum, it SHOULD produce only about as much topstrap cutting as seen in the Magnum. The idea of faster powders is to produce the proper pressure at lower loading densities that produce less total combustion gas. There are other factors, such as flame temperatures that are said to be lower for ball powders (296 and 1680) than for flake powders (2400), but both are hot enough to do damage if there is enough gas volume at enough pressure when it is spraying the topstrap through the cylinder gap.
SL1
Peter M. Eick
New member
Looks a bit worse then mine, but I would not stop shooting it.
I shoot my max but I stay away from:
1) Light bullets
2) Ball powders
3) Bad advice.
You can decide which one of these mine is.
I shoot 4227 and nothing less then 158's. I have put a bunch of rounds down mine and we have sort of stabilized at this level of cutting. My understanding of the problem is ball powders and light bullets combine to sort of bead cut the topstrap and cause the cutting you are seeing. This is why an extruded powder like 4227 does not cut as bad as say H110 or 296.
In the future I will not even shoot 158's any more. I am moving up to 180's and heavier. Also I will still stay with 4227 or non-ball powders.
The Max is sure a lot of fun, but I will admit that the gun gets DANG hot after about 50 rounds reasonably quick. I find I burn my fingers on the ejector rod.
Take care and let us know if you keep banging away with it.