Picked up my oldest S&W yet...

S

Sevens

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On Saturday I came across a gun I wasn't shopping for. It was a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector Military & Police, Model of 1905 Fourth Change. Or, in more modern terms... this is a pre-Model 10. A K-frame, double-action .38 Special.

I've mentioned my "family heirloom" gun here before, a six inch nickeled HE, M&P M1905 Fourth that my Grandfather bought used in 1923. Back in 1999, I wrote to Roy Jinks for a factory letter and Mr. Jinks told me that my 357xxx serial numbered revolver returned a 1921 production date and was shipped to the Emmons Hawkins Hardware Company in Huntington, WV.

The one I found on Saturday has many rough exterior "issues" and I would love to show you a picture but I lack a camera and hosting space. But the serial number on this one predates my Grandfather's gun by quite a bit. It's 272xxx. The action is beautifully smooth and the timing is near perfect. Mechanically, it's as sound as you'll ever ask for in a revolver of this age.

When I saw it at the show... it occurred to me that if I could find one for a low price, I could buy it and shoot it, since I don't shoot the family heirloom anymore. When I looked at my factory letter, Jinks says they started the serial numbers at 241xxx -- which means if they made 'em in order, the gun I just bought was a mere ~31,000 guns in to the production of this series...of which they made over 750,000 of!

The SCSW doesn't give a specific date for this series, but would it make sense that this is a 1915 production revolver? Like my Grandfather's revolver, this one is also nickel plated and with a six inch tapered barrel.

I've already put 100 rounds through it. Pure joy! I look forward to shooting it again in the upcoming week.
 
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M&P #272xxx dates to about 1917. 357xx must be missing a number, as that number would be a Model 1902, dating to 1903-1904.

Jim
 
Indeed, I forgot an "x" on that other revolver. It is 357xxx and it is factory lettered. I really don't think it has a high "dollar value" simply because it's not dead-mint and they made trainloads of them, but it has been in my family since 1923 and has had only two owners in that span of time, so it's very near & dear to my heart.

272xxx dates to 1917 -- do you have a resource other than the SCSW or did they update the detail between mine old 2nd edition and the current 3rd edition of the catalog?

I appreciate this information, thank you!

Now here's a question: there is a small bit of the underside of the top-strap "dished" out right over the flash gap. It is definitely, positively NOT a spot of wear or flame cutting. And if someone did it on purpose outside of the factory, I'd have to say they have outrageous skill. My 1923 does not have this.

Was this a feature of earlier revolvers?
Yes, I know a picture would be fantastic. Apologies. :o
 
If there is someone with FAR more web-searching skill than I have, can you come up with some search terms for a Google image search that shows the underside of the top strap of an early Fourth Change?

This "dished out" area directly over the flash gap of my revolver is not present on my 1921 Fourth Change.

It is definitely NOT a pattern of extreme wear, no way. It's far too even & perfect.

It almost certainly does NOT appear to be something that was done after the fact...or if it was, the guy who do it had some incredible skills or amazing tools to make it look like a factory job.

I can't figure out why it's even there. If I had to guess (UH-OH! :eek:) I would assume that Smith & Wesson found revolvers were doing a wee bit of flame-cutting, so they "removed" the area that got flame cut ahead of time... and later decided that it made little sense to do so, so they stopped doing it.

I'm sure some of you big S&W guys must know exactly the spot I'm talking about. I can't imagine mine is the only one like this.
 
If we divide the number of years they were made (36) into the total production (c. 759,000) I come up with around 20,800 units per year. Of course this is imprecise and not reflective of actual production numbers year to year but gives us a basis for a guess. Based on this haphazard reckoning, I would guess 272,000 would be 2nd year of production. For $50 you can know the exact date it shipped.
 
That was kind of the route I was taking... estimating by numbers.

I won't pay for the factory letter on this one, I was just wondering if someone has a more detailed reference for SN's similar to what Mr. Jinks is using.
 
I compiled a partial list of K frame serial numbers using several sources, including Pate's US Handguns of WWII. He shows 241xxx shipped in 1915 and 290xxx shipped on June 4, 1918. The 1917 date was extrapolated, based on approximate production figures.

Better information is certainly available from S&W, at a cost.

I have heard other explanations, but everything I have seen that seems to be valid indicates the so-called "thumbnail cut" was intended to allow the gas to expand and lose energy before it cut into the top strap. Colt had it too. Both companies experimented, learned that the gas cutting would stop before it weakened the top strap enough to be a problem, and eliminated the cut to save costs. In recent years, S&W has added a piece of steel to eliminate cutting of alloy frames.

Jim
 
Appreciate that. If I'd known these revolvers as well as you guys do, I'd have known that little dished out area was a factory job. Considering how close my two are in age, it definitely threw me -- as the one has it and the other does not.

My knee-jerk was "hey, if we remove this area, it can't get flame cut!"
Reminds me of the original Colt Delta Elite, 10mm, that suffered from a small frame crack. Colt addressed the specific problem -- they removed the small piece of metal that would crack! :p
 
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