Picked up a new gun! (and sight questions!)

M

Mr Kris

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cs629a.jpg

Picked that up yesterday (found it on gunbroker from cottfirearms, really great guy to deal with, thanks Shawn if you're reading!) and went to the range with it today..... fun fun! It's a S&W perf center 629 with a 7.5" barrel in .44 magnum. The only other .44 magnum I've shot was a range rental 629 with a 6" barrel.... which immediately caused me to want one :D . Being that I don't have much revolver experience, I don't really have anything to compare it to for a "review," so I'll just say that it's pretty, the trigger feels nice to me, and it was definitely noticeably "tamer" than the 6" I'd previously shot.

Anyway... it's shooting 3 or 4 inches low or so at 10 yards with the rear sight adjusted to the max. What I think is the max anyway, here is a pic of where it is now... the gap started getting big so I thought if I unscrewed it some more it would come loose.

cs629rearsight.jpg

And also here is a pic of the front sight:

cs629frontsight.jpg

Now, it could be that I'm just new to big bore revolvers and I'm holding it wrong or something, but I'm managing 3" or so groups at 10 yards offhand without particularly taking my time, so I'm going to assume it's the sights. I'm going to scope it eventually possibly for hunting, but it would still be nice to have the iron sights set up for plinking.

Is it not uncommon for the sights to be too low on a revolver like this one? The top of the front sight is about 11/32" (.34375") from the top of the barrel. This seems a lot higher than the ones I've seen on other guns, do they come this high with the intent that the owner files down the front sight to "fine tune" it to the ranges they shoot at? Or perhaps are the sights not designed to be adjusted out to 10 yards since the revolver has a scope mount?

In any case, I'm probably going to replace the front sight anyway with a dot sight since I prefer them. The dot sights I see to be available are .25" or .3" high, which are both shorter than what I measured my front sight to be... unless .3" is nominal and in reality that's what I have. Would the .25" height sight be a safe choice?
 
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I think the biggest thing is when you said 10 yards don't think that gun was made for 10 yards.But by the picture the rear sight looks like should go higher but hard to tell by picture :)
 
I was shooting the Remington UMC stuff today, which is 180gr @ 1610fps, 1036 ft*lb. Don't really know where that falls in the grand scheme of things.

I read in a recent post that really beefy loads tend to shoot lower because the bullet leave the gun really early in the recoil process.... any truth to that? And if so is there some sort of threshhold when this effect starts to happen?
 
Heavier bullets and/or hotter (faster) loads will tend to hit higher at normal handgun ranges. Lighter bullets and/or milder loads will hit lower. It all has to do with how much the barrel start upward, due to recoil.

The extra barrel weights will minimize muzzle rise, keeping your shots lower.

However... at 10 yards, I don't think the difference would be noticable. That gun would be more at home shooting at 100 yards.

Good Luck...

Joe
 
I understand that faster bullets have a flatter trajectory and tend to hit higher on a target, but this doesn't take into account muzzle flip. I read a post here (can't find it now) discussing this.... anyway, I made a picture:

diag2.gif

The theory was that a faster bullet could possibly leave the barrel earlier in recoil than a slower bullet, so the slower bullet would actually leave with the muzzle slightly higher since no man can hold the gun still during recoil.

My question is, has anyone experienced this firsthand or otherwise know this theory to be true? A 1600fps bullet should leave the barrel about 60% quicker than a 1000fps bullet, for example... but the number of seconds assuming linear acceleration for the bullet to clear the barrel is .00078125 for the faster bullet and .00125 for the slower.... a difference of .00046875 seconds for the muzzle to rize higher on the slower bullet. Is this amount of time for the muzzle to rize enough to make a difference?

Eventually what I'm getting to back in my original post is: perhaps maybe a slower bullet will work better with the sights? Being that this seems to be designed as a hunting revolver, Remington's commercial hunting loads for example are ~1200fps as compared to 1600fps for the UMC stuff.
 
Mr. Kris said,

"Now, it could be that I'm just new to big bore revolvers and I'm holding it wrong or something, but I'm managing 3" or so groups at 10 yards offhand without particularly taking my time, so I'm going to assume it's the sights. I'm going to scope it eventually possibly for hunting, but it would still be nice to have the iron sights set up for plinking."

I have been plinking with, hunting with and competing with big bore revolvers most of my life and I have experienced problems like yours from time to time, so lets remove some of the variables.

Get to a bench with a good sandbag rest and shoot the gun at 15 yards. The sandbag rest, if used properly, will all but eliminate all human error, especially with such a large gun. This will give you a real feel for the shootability and grouping of the revolver. This is also the best way to adjust your sights to the point of impact. Something else here...always shoot to the same spot. New shooters tend to "chase the shot" by trying to shoot at the last bullet hole instead of the original spot with every round.

Then if you can get the gun to shoot close to the point of aim, but are still having problems grouping decently, try different brands of ammunition at the same bullet grain weight. Consistiency is the key here. Then you might try different grain weights to see which one shoots the best in your gun. You might be surprised how much difference there can be. I have found that in some guns, the only way I could get the accuracy I require is to handload. That is a another posibility you might consider in the future. One gun had a problem grouping with any ammunition I shot in it and I took it to my local gunsmith. He took a brass bore brush, coated it with polishing compound and buffed the bore and lands to a miror finish. Talk about a difference. The best ammo I shot in that gun before the bore polish only produced, at best, a 3 1/2" group...after polishing the group tightened to less than 2" consistiently. He thought he saw a burr in one of the lands and I guess the polishing took care of it. This is something better done by a qualified gunsmith.

Once you have established the guns ability to hit the target where you want, get off the bench and shoot freehand. This will tell you if it's the gun or shooter. Another suggestion is to have someone watch you shoot. You would be suprised how easy it is for another person to pick up problems and inconsistiencies in your form, trigger pull and even sight alignment.

Good luck sith your new revolver. It is really a great looking gun.

Mike
 
Thanks for all the advice so far guys; it is much appreciated!

I ordered a new rest today and a higher rear sight blade as well in case I find that the sights really do need to be adjusted more than allowed with the current sight blade.

I haven't heard the term "chase the spot," but I'm definitely not guilty of that. I'm pretty much a bigbore n00b, but I've been shooting auto-pistols for a little while now.

In any case, it will probably be next week when I get to the range again with a rest and possibly replace the rear sight; I'll post my findings!
 
Mr Kris

That is a pretty pistol, and I'll bet all that meat up front really makes the .44 Magnum a very composed shooter :) .

I agree that at this distance, I don't think bullet weight/velocity is any issue - the total arc of any bullet at 10 yards is negligible.

The theory of muzzle flip affecting point of impact is interesting, but I have always assumed that the bullet is already gone by the time the muzzle has risen - people shoot some pretty flippy small pistols without any perceived effect on target during *slowfire*. Besides, even if flip *were* doing anything to POI, it should make it high, not low.

I think that your first instinct must be correct - it's either your sight alignment, or your hold. If you have tried shooting from rest as suggested and still shoot low, then find another experienced revolver shooter on the range, and have them shoot a group from the rest. Their hold is independent of yours, so if both of you are low, then that points to the sights as the issue. If they are not low, then that indicates your hold at fault.

The front sight does indeed look kind of tall, though it's hard to tell from a pic. Those are not intended to be filed down. Even if a previous owner mismatched some sights, it's cheaper to get the taller rear blade as you have done than to do anything with that front sight through a gunsmith.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out! :D
Caleb
 
Just one last point in the "theoretical". In your example of 100fps vs 1600 fps, don't forget the extra speed comes with more recoil.

Same gun, same 240 grain bullet:

1000 fps = 9# recoil
1200 fps = 12#
1600 fps = 18#

The faster load may be getting the bullet out of the barrel faster, BUT it is also generating more recoil. No free lunch.

Now, go get some range time and have fun!!

Joe
 
Update!

Went to the range with it again today... brought a friend, and brought a rest. Rest was a Millett benchmaster thing... I didn't like it too much and will probably replace it soon, but it served its purpose.

It really was shooting low with the particular ammo I was using! (Remington UMC, 180gr semi jacketed flat point @ about 1600fps). Shot it off the rest and let my friend shoot it, and it was really low even with the elevation set really high. Grouping was ok though.... like I said I'm pretty inexperienced revolver-wise, but was managing 1.5" (off the too-slippery rest) at 10 yards... not particularly bad I don't think for only having fired a total of 150 .44magnum shots in my lifetime. Revolver grips still feel funny to me haha...

Anyway, I took a sharpie and started blacking out some of the orange until groups were shooting at the point of aim in about the middle of the adjustability. I'm pretty sure now I'm going to cut the front sight down to where I marked it off... my only concern now is does anyone think I'll be limiting my adjustability if I use different ammo types?

Does anyone have a .44mag they've shot with UMC or similar ammo, and then shot say... 240grain hunting loads out of? How much higher/lower was the point of impact?

Also, I found out exactly what sight it is in the front... the sight cut is actually a 3/8" dovetail like some rifles and shotguns, and the particular sight is a Millett, here. Height is listed as .4", which is what I measure it as from the bottom of the dovetail.
 
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I'm pretty sure now I'm going to cut the front sight down to where I marked it off... my only concern now is does anyone think I'll be limiting my adjustability if I use different ammo types?
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Whoa up there, Nellie! Not so fast. :)

You need to try some different loads in that beauty before you start cuttin'. It may just be that she doesn't care for that particular load. Other loads may not impact as low as the one you are using.

The only other thing I can think of is this (and I'm raising this issue because I've done it myself): as you pull the trigger to fire the gun, are you lowering the barrel so that you can see where you hit the target? You can actually cause the round to shoot low if you are doing this, and it can become a bad habit. Same thing could be caused by flinching. If you are flinching, you may be thrusting the barrel down as you fire.

Good luck, and let us know how things turn out!
 
Ok.....

Went to the range again tonight :)

This time I brought along Hornady 240grain XTPs. And.... still shot low using the sight as normal! Using just the part I marked off, it shot fine. I'm convinced now that I'm not doing anything wrong.... the barrel weights are just doing their job it seems.

Here's a pic of a 6 shot group I shot with the XTPs, 10 yards offhand. Not the best group you'll ever see... but it's not half bad for a revolver newbie learning the ropes on a 44mag is it? (and Sharpie sights :D )

cs629andTarget.jpg

I don't "plan" on shooting anything heavier than the Hornadys, but at $10 for a replacement sight, if I eventually find something I like to shoot that shifts the point of impact up more than I can adjust the sights for after I cut the front one down, it won't be too big a hit to the pocket. (Oh, and I do plan on scoping it anyways pretty soon.)

Here's a pic of the sight... I plan to cut away all the black that I marked out:

cs629sightTarget.jpg
 
I am a little confused - are people saying that the arc of the bullet travel is making it strike low at 10 yards? :confused: From the ballistics tables I have seen online for the .44 Magnum, even at 50 yards, you've got less than an inch of drop, regardless of load.
 
I don't think it's the arc so much as the recoil... the theory being that a hotter load will cause the gun to recoil more so the bullet will leave the gun at a slightly higher angle than when you were aiming. After trying the Hornady loads, it seems to me that the barrel weight just does a really good job of mitigating the muzzle rise.

I cut down the sight a day or two ago..... taking it to range again Wednesday or Thursday or both, hopefully with some handloads to try. I'll post here if I made a big mistake or not :p
 
Hmmm.... so the concept is that the recoil (and muzzle flip) are occurring *during* the travel of the bullet down the barrel? I always assumed the bullet was already gone by the time the barrel had lifted appreciably, due to it's greater mass, but I can't say that's based on anything more than intuition (not data). Anyone know what the timing is? A special high speed camera could essentially record the whole thing - not sure if anyone with the budget for that has ever used it to watch firearms discharges though.
 
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