Personal FFL Pro's & Con's

G

gadawg31

New member
Ok, I know this topic is probably a can of worms discussion, depending on the route; however I am looking into getting my FFL. I will be doing out of my home and DO NOT intend on having a lot of volume. Maybe one or two sales here and there, so my question is: "...is it worth the time and money?" I have heard from all the so called barracks lawyers and FFL experts, but wanted some opinions from here. Is there a benefit for me when buying guns wholesale? I understand about the state and local offices will get their cut with zoning approval and other permits, but I want an honest opinion on whether or not it will be worth it. THanks.

JD
 
You should search the archives for existing threads. There is a ton of info. on here already addressing that topic.
 
Worth it

gadawg31: I guess it really depends on what you mean by worth it.

If your in it for the moeny and only doing a couple of sales here and there, probably not. You may not make enough to offset the cost of your FFL and other fee's. If your into it for the fun and love of guns, then probably yes.

I do it more as a hobby. My clients are a select group of friends, LEO and military. Sometimes I may not make a sale or transfer for months. I just enjoy the firearms trade and shooting. Good luck in your decision.
 
I'll play the devil's advocate here, I'm the ATF agent at your home doing the interview before approval.
Question; What are you planning to do with this license?
What type of volume do you expect to do?
Where and how are you going to secure the firearms once received that are awaiting pick up?
You do know this license is not a personal tool for you to enhance your personal collection, right?
 
gadawg31 Personal FFL Pro's & Con's
Ok, I know this topic is probably a can of worms discussion, depending on the route; however I am looking into getting my FFL. I will be doing out of my home and DO NOT intend on having a lot of volume. Maybe one or two sales here and there, so my question is: "...is it worth the time and money?" I have heard from all the so called barracks lawyers and FFL experts, but wanted some opinions from here. Is there a benefit for me when buying guns wholesale? I understand about the state and local offices will get their cut with zoning approval and other permits, but I want an honest opinion on whether or not it will be worth it. THanks.
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No such animal as a "Personal FFL"
You are either a collector, dealer, pawnbroker or manufacturer. The 03FFL for collectors restricts you to firearms designated as "curios & relics" or any firearm fifty years old or older........it is solely for collecting purposes and cannot be used to engage in the business of dealing in firearms.

The other FFL types ARE for those who intend to engage in the business of dealing in firearms. ATF will not issue an FFL to someone who intends to use it for "personal use".

"Maybe one or two sales here and there..." Means what? One or two a week, one or two a month or one or two a year?

If ATF discovers the only transactions in your bound book are to yourself and your brother in law they will revoke your license.

Additionally, you need to investigate just how much $$$$ you will save by having an FFL. It is a common misconception that every jackleg with an FFL get guns at huge discounts....that simply is not true. Dealer markup on firearms is around 5%........and WalMart, Academy and Bud's will still have a lower price than you.
 
Ok, don't read into the personnel FFL title. I only mean that as I am not starting a full on self sustaining business. I know there is no such thing as a "Personnel FFL", I only wanted to set the precendence of my intentions. I want to be able to do my own business, out of my house and not worry about hunting down a dealer to transfer a weapon.

Vostracker, you seem to be the only one that understands what I am doing here and I believe I have my answer when it comes to dealer wholesale. A lot of what I have been able to research is based on volume, type and dealer status. I just wanted to get some opinions from other s who have their FFL and are doing what I want to try and do.

dogtown, what is your reference on the following statement: "If ATF discovers the only transactions in your bound book are to yourself and your brother in law they will revoke your license."
 
Don P, thanks for the devils advocatet questions. I had run a few scenarios through my head, but a couple of your questions gave me a different view and potential resonse to the ATF folks. Thanks.

JD
 
I think another angle could be gunsmithing. My FFL guy that I use is a gunsmith and does lots of transfers for lots of people and I know for a fact he doesn't sell any new guns off of his property (which is his home as well). It seems to me that as long as you have transfers in your bound book you should be good to go, and I'm certain that you can put your name out there for any locals who would like to utilize your services in that regard. At $20-25, whatever the local guys charge you, that ain't a bad kickback for facilitating someone's transfer, right?

I'm sure lots of FFL'ers are also armorers or smiths in some capacity and I wouldn't see a reason why the ATF would revoke your license as long as they feel that you are seriously working on guns. I think that would allow for a light bound book. I could be wrong about this.
 
gadawg31 ....dogtown, what is your reference on the following statement: "If ATF discovers the only transactions in your bound book are to yourself and your brother in law they will revoke your license."
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ATF.
An 01FFL is required for anyone "engaging in the business of dealing in firearms".....while there is no stated "minimum" number of firearms the licensee must transfer, sell or acquire, ATF is VERY clear that the FFL is NOT for "personal use". Who makes the decision that you aren't actually "engaged in the business"? Your IOI does.

For reference you can ask the thousands of former FFL's who were "nonrenewed" for not actually being engaged in the business.
 
you need to investigate just how much $$$$ you will save by having an FFL. It is a common misconception that every jackleg with an FFL get guns at huge discounts....that simply is not true. Dealer markup on firearms is around 5%........and WalMart, Academy and Bud's will still have a lower price.
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I agree with that. I have a buddy who is a full time gunsmith and he says only maybe on 1 out of 10 new gun orders he makes for customers that he gets a better deal than what they could have gotten themselves from jetguns,buds,J&G etc.

Also, with the FFL comes the authorization for the ATF to come and check your paperwork and anything on site on a whim.
I know 3 FFL's and all of them have their "office" outside of their homes. All 3 have either built a small one or use these portable type sheds set out away from the house and addressed differently from the home as apartment 1 or suite 1 etc. They say that way only that building can be searched and not their house during a regular ATF check.

I would love to have a FFL. Around here you can get $20-30 per transfer. My buddy says he averages 8 per week so if you average 8 @$20 for a years time that $8k ...not bad for a few minutes of paperwork and a 5 min phone call.
You also have to remember that all shipments will have to be signed for. So, someone will always have to be at home to sign for shipments.
 
Rmart30 with the FFL comes the authorization for the ATF to come and check your paperwork and anything on site on a whim.
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Not exactly.
ATF compliance inspections are limited by law to no more than once per year. Many small dealers go several years without an inspection. These compliance inspections are limited to the dealers bound book, 4473's, multiple sale forms and inventory.......nothing else.



They say that way only that building can be searched and not their house during a regular ATF check.
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Almost.
During a compliance inspection ATF will not care about anything other than what i listed above. If it is a criminal investigation, having a separate office only means that ATF will add the dealers other addresses to the search warrant. (and they have to show probable cause that you are engaged in criminal activity to the judge who signs that search warrant....they cannot just arbitrarily search your sock drawer)



I would love to have a FFL. Around here you can get $20-30 per transfer. My buddy says he averages 8 per week so if you average 8 @$20 for a years time that $8k ...not bad for a few minutes of paperwork and a 5 min phone call.
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I'm a schoolteacher, the extra income is nice. But....don't for one minute think that its only a few minutes paperwork and a five minute phone call.


You also have to remember that all shipments will have to be signed for. So, someone will always have to be at home to sign for shipments.
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Instead of having shipments sent to your home, use a mailing address. I use the local UPS Store. They receive from UPS, FedEx and USPS. I make a stop by there every afternoon on the way home.
 
For an out of home FFL, what is the rule about making transfers at other locations, such as I meet a guy at the state range and do the paperwork? I know the ATFE was saying this was a nono a few years back people got upset and maybe there were changes. I have considered doing this and keeping no inventory, but I don't really want to do it out of my house. The state range has a LEO there all the time and lots of other armed people. THere isn't an FFL in my city anymore, so I think there is a pretty good market and I could order things off buds or such for people and charge them the price+transfer up front. I wouldn't make a ton of money, but probably increase my hobby fund quite a bit and make some good contacts. If it grew a bit it sure would be fun to open a brick and mortar full time.
 
It would need to be an "event" as described below. If you are just meeting the customer at the range....absolutely not.


§ 478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.

(a)(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of §478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.

(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.

(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.

(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10498, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF–401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]
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As dogtown tom has stated as well as a very old dear friend who is a FFL-01 holder mainly for his gun smithing shop.
He has had his second visit in 4 years just a few months ago. The ATF checked his bound book, verse's all firearms on sight in every safe. Checking ALL serial numbers on guns making sure they matched in the bound book. All personal firearms MUST be labeled with a simple tag that states personal and remember this for anyone wanting to have a FFL license at your home,
THE ATF HAS THE RIGHT TO SEARCH YOUR ENTIRE HOME IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. YOU GRANTED THEM THAT RIGHT WHEN YOU APPLIED AND RECEIVED YOUR FFL LICENSE AT YOU RESIDENCE
Guess what if they should find any sort of contraband???????:eek:
 
If the "licensed premises" is at your residence, you designate what potion of it is your business. Without a warrant, the ATF's inspection is limited to the area you have designated. The designation has to be reasonable for the nature of the business. That is, you cannot just arbitrarily designate one square inch in the corner of the bathroom. You can designate the den or kitchen, for example. Firearms may be stored "off site," but you may be require to retrieve and produce them.

If you intend to engage in legitimate business of buying and selling firearms, and your zoning does not prohibit it, having an FFL at your residence address is no big deal. There are various online search tools for FFLs by zip code. Check and you may be surprised how many home-based FFLs there are in your area.
 
Don P ...THE ATF HAS THE RIGHT TO SEARCH YOUR ENTIRE HOME IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. YOU GRANTED THEM THAT RIGHT WHEN YOU APPLIED AND RECEIVED YOUR FFL LICENSE AT YOU RESIDENCE.....
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Horsehockey.:rolleyes:

This myth is perpetuated by those that don't know the difference between a compliance inspection and a search pursuant to a criminal investigation.



§ 478.23 Right of entry and examination.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred and that evidence of the violation may be found on the premises of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:

(1) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and

(2) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.

(b) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, ammunition and firearms referred to in paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) In the course of a reasonable inquiry during the course of a criminal investigation of a person or persons other than the licensee,

(2) For insuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part:

(i) Not more than once during any 12-month period, or

(ii) At any time with respect to records relating to a firearm involved in a criminal investigation that is traced to the licensee, or

(3) When such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.

(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises.

(d) The inspections and examinations provided by this section do not authorize an ATF officer to seize any records or documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If an ATF officer seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee within a reasonable time.

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10492, Mar. 31, 1988; as amended by T.D. ATF–363, 60 FR 17450, Apr. 6, 1995]
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