Performance of an hypothetical .32 H&R Magnum bullet

MarMas

Inactive
I would like to take the first sentence to wish everyone here a shiny and wonderful day.

I have a question that preys on my mind so much, that I would like to ask you to help me.

To start with the important things first:
My question is entirely hypothetical and it is purely ballistic in nature. And I am fully aware of that.

The question:
How far is it possible to hit a 6-inch round target with following hypothetical cartridge?
(I don't really need a calculation value, but rather your estimation based on your experience)

Imagine a cartridge that has to meet five conditions:

¹ It has to be the .32 H&R Magnum within its pressure range of 21000 psi maximum.

² It has to use bullseye powder only.

³ It has to be on the heavy side in the 100 to 120 grain weight range.

⁴ It has to use a totally flat nose bullet. Think about a "seated out" wadcutter.

⁵ It, the bullet, has to be built of copper only.


I know, from point 3 it gets really strange. A bullet, extra-wide and overlong - as if there was no ballistics ...

But how far could such a projectile reach out, just enough to hit a 6-inch target?

Just take whatever barrel length you think is necessary.

Thank you very much in advance to those who will be posting through the day.
 
I think some of your parameters will compromise your results.

I am not researching my comments. They are educated guess.

I do not know the standard rifling twist for 32 H+R,but long,heavy for caliber bullets made of lighter than lead materials typically need a faster than standard twist bullet to stabilize. Your bullets may go through the target sideways.The 6 inch accuracy goal would not be realized.
You might first establish what twist you have and what twist your bullet will require.

I think Bullseye powder may not be the best choice if you want performance with heavy bullets. It can be a good powder for economical target loads.

I'm not looking at any loading manuals right now,but I suspect powders like 2400,Unique,...etc.would serve you better. While this is recollection,even H-110 is a higher performance 32 H+R powder...however, it is NOT a flexible powder,it MUST be loaded to higher pressures,and I don't think your parameter of 22,000 psi will work with H-110.

To recap,rifling twist ,heavy,long,copper bullets, and a less than ideal powder burn rate will limit your success.

That said,with stabilized bullets, you then must deal with the accuracy of the firearm and shooting ability .

6 inches at 50 yards is a quite reasonable expectation. Six inches at 100 yds would not be out of the question.

From a handgun such as a Contender ,perhaps 6 inches at 200 yds is possible.

From a pocket revolver,maybe 6 in at 25 yds would be a challenge

You actually find out by shooting. The old saying "Talk is Cheap" applies.

Good luck!
 
How far? As far as the round will go. Probably a mile or more if you give it enough elevation.

You might want to rethink how you've stated your question.
 
What you wrote is really helpful. Thank you very much for that, @HiBC
I really appreciate it.

In fact, the named conditions are nothing else than chicanes. But this chicanes makes it impossible to me to understand how the ballistics then works.

Of course, I have no doubts that velocity will drop off quickly, a percentage of key holes will occure and the barrel twist requires something like 1:8. Not to say feeding problems etc.
It's more an thought experiment.
 
Probably a mile or more if you give it enough elevation to hit a 6-inch round target?
My shooting skills just can't keep up with yours.

@74A95
I thought I had cleared up the purely ballistic aspect from the start. I am sincerely sorry if I have ever made anyone feel uncomfortable, it was never my intention.
 
I think you may want to research on "totally flat nose" bullets do in an atmosphere.

Don't recall the writer at the moment but in the early 20th century experiments were conducted with such cylindrical bullets. It was determined by experiment that these are very inaccurate at higher velocities for longer range. The dynamics of air flow were not well understood but the bullets, fired in wind-baffle tunnel (my term for an area enclosed to exclude the effects of wind) for 100 yard range had bullets tumble and were not the hoped-for improved grouping from "absolutely identical bullets". The flat tip attempts to compress air ahead and it does not escape that compression at all evenly distributed over the bullet.

If shooting in a vacuum bullet shape wouldn't have much affect on flight characteristics but in atmosphere bullet shape is extremely important if the goal is accuracy. Then matching other characteristics like rifling twist and velocity to the bullet.
 
Well I don't think rifling or much of anything else has much to do with this question. How far can you hit a 6" target? Depends on how lucky you get! Inside cover of a box of 22RF I have say's "caution: Dangerous to 1 1/2 mi". What would happen if the 6" target just happened to be standing in the wrong spot? You'd hit it! What brought this question on in the first place?
 
@Don_Fischer

Because the variables of a cartridge as velocity, bullet weight, bullet geometry etc. give "not directly" a measure of its efficacy, striking the right balance because of practical knowledge is more critical. At least that's what i think.

Thank you for your appreciated input!
 
I’m curious, do you have a particular goal in mind? If you’re thinking 25yds/meters I would think it’s pretty doable. If you’re thinking much further things would be very tricky given your parameters. You’ve also mentioned feeding problems, being a revolver cartridge I’m curious what you mean by feeding problems. You’ve also used the term ‘chicanes’ to describe these parameters which kind of has me baffled as to your intended meaning.
 
@jetinteriorguy

I really didn't want to be misread or incomplete. Pardon. As I wrote I am asking about ballistics only. Or the ballistic theory. I would like to develop a better understanding of ballistic processes.

In particular, I try to understand what happens when a projectile is decidedly disadvantaged in terms of flight ballistics.

I guess, that with a caliber like .32 Magnum and these five aggravating conditions, I can get real answers or insights.
 
An example of the (to me) overflowing complexity:

Be a .32 Magnum armed with a projectile of a certain length. Saami puts the "maximum pressure standard" at 21,000 psi.

If the projectile length is now dramatically increased and also receives a way higher weight, this increases also the pressure just to be able to get this projectile out of the barrel at all. And then there's a completely flat meplat etc.

I don't think it would very daring to believe that such a projectile can still be fired within the pressure range of 21,000 psi over a distance of 15 to 30 yards with sufficient precision that a six inch circle can be struck.

But where is the limit here if I assume targeted shots? What is possible (for example with a .32 Mag) if something like ballistic coefficients etc. are only considered to the bare minimum?

Please don't misunderstand me. I am by no means bored. It's not an "academic pleasure" to me, but rather, if at all, an "academic challenge".
 
I think within certain limits you could expect that level of accuracy. Ascertaining the real world limits would be pretty difficult to predict based on ballistics alone, too many other factors involved, each of which could have a profound affect on this level of accuracy at farther distances. So basically the only way to really know would be working up a load and shooting it.
 
Oh yes, I don't have to know exactly, either, just the direction. Or to put it another way: How many yards would an experienced shooter/loader assume ... in his experience?
I ask for assessment in combination with experience, not for measurement. Maybe it's better put that way.
 
Just a little input from experience:
In my 20s (40-ish years ago) I was casting and shooting zinc bullets, trying to get the highest velocity possible out of my 357 Mag. A 158 gr SWC mold would throw a 100-ish grain zinc bullet, and we had loading data for 100 grain bullets in the 357 so we played around a bit. Using a bullet of known dimensions was important due to barrel twist and stabilizing the bullet (twist stabilizes a particular LENGTH of projectile, weight has little to do with it).

Accuracy was good with the lighter bullets, but ballistics were not all that great due to the lighter bullets slowing down really fast. 100 yds hits were easily doable, but by 150 yds the drop was significant and hard to compensate for without movint the sights. We did manage some 200 yds hits by using an aiming point above the targets, but by 200 yds the dispersion made it hard to hit the target consistently.

In your case, you are basically asking what is the maximum point blank range for a coppper bullet of unknown profile, weight and velocity. If it were me, I would concentrate on a truncated cone design bullet of dimensions similar to the heaviest 32 H&R bullet available so you can stabilize it well. Using copper, you will likely find loading data for bullets of similar weight in your loading manual. You will also find that copper is very soft and prone to galling and fouling in the barrel.

Good luck with your experiments!
 
@Scorch
I want to thank you so much for that brilliant introduction and for your support. You didn't advise this for no purpose!!
 
Since you could lob hundreds of rounds in the general vicinity of a 6 inch target and hit it by chance, I would assume you mean being able to shoot a group of 6 inches or so. Assuming a competent shooter or a machine rest, I think the range you can get a 6 inch group would depend more on the inherent accuracy of the gun than the load you shoot in it. I guess to answer the question for sure you'll need to find somebody who makes 120 grain copper wadcutters.
 
@griz

Many thanks for your friendly answer. I am only afraid that with this view of "to hit a target" I am more of a threat to those around me. :-D

My guess is now that a hit rate of 90% is possible up to maybe 40 yards. Then it could drop dramatically. Under these conditions/difficulties, the hit rate could have dropped to just 70% at 50 yards. However, it is only a guess based on nothing but conversations with more savvy contemporaries.
 
MarMas,

The thing that struck me about your initial post is the specific set of constraints. Backing up a little from that, for general purposes, there are four areas of ballistics. In the order in which they are involved in taking a shot, they are:

  1. Interior ballistics
  2. Transitional ballistics
  3. Exterior ballistics
  4. Terminal ballistics
Interior is about what is happening while the bullet is still in the barrel of the gun. Transitional ballistics is about the brief period when the bullet has cleared the muzzle but is still being influenced by the gases from the muzzle blast that comes from behind it, and is greatest for the first six to twelve calibers of bullet travel beyond the muzzle. Exterior ballistics is about the way the bullet coasts to the target after the transitional ballistic influence is no longer present, so it covers most of the bullet's trajectory to the target. Terminal ballistics is about how the bullet's impact affects the target.

For the interior ballistics of your hypothetical situation, you have to keep in mind what is called expansion. Expansion refers to the fact that while the bullet is still in the barrel, the volume behind the bullet grows as the bullet moves forward. The volume behind the bullet at the muzzle divided by the volume behind the bullet when it is still in the chamber is called the expansion ratio of the gun. If you pick a powder like Bullseye, because it burns quickly, the pressure peak will be reached before the bullet has moved very far, and thus the pressure peak occurs in a small volume behind the bullet and often before the bullet has completely left the cartridge case. Reaching a given pressure in a small volume does not require very much gas, so a small charge of fast powder can make enough gas to reach the peak pressure. But with a slow-burning powder, the bullet has time to move further down the barrel and have more expansion of the volume behind it more before the pressure peak is reached. This means the peak pressure occurs in a larger volume and requires more gas to be reached which requires a larger charge of the slow powder. When there is more gas, pressure does not drop off as fast as the bullet goes beyond its peak pressure position, and thus there is more post-peak acceleration with the larger load of slow powder than there is with the smaller load of fast powder. As a result, the larger charge of slow powder produces higher velocity. The downside to the slow powder is the greater gas mass produces more recoil in addition to the greater acceleration of the bullet producing more recoil.

Transitional ballistics generally results in around 3-4% gain in velocity of the bullet after it clears the muzzle, but this varies with expansion ratio. This is from the muzzle blast blowing against the bottom of it. Since the bullet is outside the rifling for that, no additional increase in spin occurs; just forward velocity increases. The deflection of the gases off the bullet base can also exaggerate the initial yaw of the bullet, making it tip a bit more as it spins. That increases drag a bit at first, but far enough downrange it should settle. With soft lead hollow-base wadcutters, if the muzzle blast is too great it can cause expansion of the hollow base which reduces the bullet BC all the way to the target and introduces odd drag.

Exterior ballistics is all about how drag on a bullet affects its flight and how precession from spinning like a gyroscope causes it to correct its alignment into the wind. It is also about where the critical values for the effect of these factors lie in order to know what spin is minimally required. Starting in the late 1860s, when early electromechanical chronographs became available, standard practice was established in which thousands of standard shape projectiles were fired at different velocities to see how fast they slowed down at those velocities to determine the overall effect of drag on the projectile. Then, all other projectiles were compared to the standard shape by how fast they slowed down in comparison. That became the basis for the ballistic coefficient you commonly see now. Today you can select different standard projectile shapes to compare to, each having its own unique BC for your bullet and each producing a different degree of accuracy in matching your bullet's shape and therefore accuracy in matching its drag behavior at different velocities. But the default BC you see generally published is for the G1 standard projectile. The comparison and your bullet's velocity near the muzzle (but after transitional ballistics are done) is used to determine trajectory tables by comparing to how the standard projectile was measured to behave at the same velocities.

You don't have to use BC's to determine a trajectory if you have the drag function for an individual bullet. Doppler RADAR is making those easier to determine than they have been in the past, so more and more bullet drag functions are being published. Lapua has published them for about twenty years. Hornady now has a lot you can select from for their 4 DOF ballistic calculator. For the cylinder like you propose to shoot, the U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory (BRL) determined the drag function long ago. It is called the RA4 drag function. If you find an exterior ballistics calculator that lets you select that drag function and you enter the measured velocity of your cylindrical bullet, you will get the most accurate prediction of the trajectory by using RA4 instead of the G1 drag function. (In the calculator I linked to, the first entry window at the top left has a drop-down menu that has RA4 at the bottom of its list.)

It is not true that a cylinder will necessarily become unstable at long range. That observation is an artifact of over a century of using hollow-base wadcutters with inadequate rifling twist rates, as commonly occurs due to many standard-for-caliber twist rates having been chosen originally for lighter, shorter bullets around the end of the 19th century, but subsequently used with the longer, lower velocity wadcutters anyway. This has caused issues with both 32 Long and 38 Special wadcutters at times. I saw the report of an experiment done with the 32 Long HB commercial wadcutter ammunition published in an article twenty years ago in which the author started, IIRC, with a standard 18.75" twist in a gun, then went to 16", then to 14", then to 12" then to 10". The groups at pistol range kept getting tighter and tighter down to the 12" twist, then opened a little with the 10" (again, IIRC). But the point is the 18.75" twist is not optimal for subsonic HB wadcutter shooting, where extra high stability factors seem to pay dividends with that particular bullet shape. 18.75" (476.3 mm) remains the SAAMI standard, and 476.00 mm (18.74") is the CIP standard.

Terminal ballistics will get you into the realm of bullet penetration, bullet shape, expanding bullet performance, kinetic energy, momentum, bullet tumbling, and other factors in target damage for hunting or personal defense purposes. It will more simply also get you to using sharp edges for cutting clean holes in target paper. Except for clean holes in paper, terminal ballistics is the least predictable area of ballistics, with the same loads often producing a significant variation in results from one shot to the next on living targets. This has resulted in lots of arguments about the relative roles of bullet shape, kinetic energy, momentum, sectional density, and other factors, and no universal predictive formula has yet been successfully devised that provides a sure prediction of what load under what bullet will produce the best results every time.

Welcome to a hobby that lets you get as involved as you please with the details, but that also can be as simple as following a recipe and just practicing your shooting skills. Immersion in the details of ballistics can cause you to forget that your marksmanship skills outweigh all else in getting a gun to do the job you intend it to do.
 
Immersion in the details of ballistics can cause you to forget that your marksmanship skills outweigh all else in getting a gun to do the job you intend it to do.
Probably accounts for 99% of my reloading obsession.:D
 
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