Perfect caliber for "Tactical" rifle?

B

Blue Duck357

New member
I notice a lot of intrest in tactical or "sniper" rifles recently. I know the .308 round is good and very well researched, but if you handloaded and didn't need to worry about NATO standard or ammo availability what round would you pick to chamber your a long range rifle?

Just curious, Blue Duck
 
Did just that thing, thought about it for over a year, did computer ballistic crunching, researched brass, powder, bullets, actions, barrel steels, barrel contours, barrel manufacturers, action maintainability, recoil, energy, effective range, potential accuracy, muzzle brakes, fired a variety of rounds, read about a gazillion more via Tactical Shooter and Precision Shooting, called LOTS of gun folks, designed on bar napkins, even built a prototype.

Then I built my own. It was designated an Interdiction Rifle, and it's chambered in 6.5-06. Stays supersonic past 1000 yards. It's gotten inside of a 10" group at 1000 yards from the prone bipod, produces reliable 1/4" groups at 100 yards, and doesn't beat the tar out of me when shooting long range, like some of the magnums do.

It's entering the "Any Rifle - Any Sight" match next Sunday, 80 rounds standing, sitting, prone, rapid and slow fire, heeehee, they said "any safe gun" qualifies. Another one of the competitors showed up today as I was practicing, asked me what I was doing, and just shook his head.

Then I bought my Remington 700PSS in .308 a year later. Kinda made my Interdiction Rifle seem obsolete at that point. I'd never spend that kind of money again on a custom wildcat of that design and purpose! But now they both live happily together, and the 700PSS will be my fallback gun next week.

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Falls/7268/interdiction.html
 
Just put my first one together. Remington LTR in .308, Harris bipod and Leupold 4.5-14X14 Tactical scope. I'm off to the range this morning to sight it in :)
 
Looks to me like the most critical part of the whole deal is the quality of the reticle of the scope.

Any package which will reliably shoot inside one MOA is accurate enough. Any (heavier; boat-tail) bullet which is supersonic at 1,000 yards should allow such accuracy; this determines the cartridge and barrel length. We know that there are many cartridges with sufficient power to suffice.

So: You have all your trajectory data all nicely written down, or memorized.

Since the range to your target is somewhere between point-blank and maybe 1,000 yards, you need to adjust your scope accordingly. In the real-world killing field, you ain't gonna get no sight-in shots.

That means that you'll have to know the range--and I'll assume you do--and you'll have to adjust the scope, unless you're the world's best at "Kentucky Windage". That means you have to be confident that a certain number of clicks is a certain number of inches--which carries me back to the beginning.

:), Art
 
I have two that I consider absolutely necessary.

1. Remington 700 LTR in .308 with a 6-20 Simmons and a harris bipod. I think this one will get me through just about any situation I would have cause to use it in.

2. The second one is a Remington 700 Sendero in .300 win mag. I got it more for plinking real long range targets with but it's good for most tactical situations I can think of from 100 through about 600 yds. It'll probably shoot furthur than that accurately but I'm not real worried about practicing up on 1000 yd shots. If something is that far away It doesn't bother me much.
 
I designed my own. I was inspired by 7.62x45 Czech, it is as long as our 5.56nato case at 45mm(1.760) and as wide as the 7.62x39 Russian .445 at the rim. It hard to find any brass cases in the proper size so I took 6.5x54 Manlicher Schoenauer brass cut it to 45mm and necked it down to 6mm.
The result is a .240Nic, in order to use it in an AR15 you must either have a custom bolt made at.447 or trim all of the rims to .445 and use a 7.62x39 bolt. With 55 grain bullets I can get 3500 fps out of a 20 barrel AR15. With the bullets I want to use, such as 87gr JHP's, I am getting pressure problems and violent extraction. I am going to get an adjustable gas block and close it almost all the way and see if I get better results. What I want is at least 2950fps with 87gr bullets(bc of .404).
 
Well, since the greatest use of the so-called "tactical" rifle is likely to be in hostage situations in urban or built up areas, I think we're looking at a lot of overkill here.

I'd go for a suppressed .308, with a fast twist, built to shoot 240 grain matchkings at a subsonic velocity. A smaller case, such as the 6BR or 6PPC size, could also be utilized.

Conversely, in the theory of big and slow, one could also look at bolt rifles chambered for such cartridges as the .45 long colt variants or .44 magnum, firing max heavy bullets (under 1,000 fps), also fitted with suppressors. A 300-400 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity right below the speed of sound is something to be reckoned with.

Should penetration be a problem, I'd recommend that the tactical officer have more than one rifle with which he is familiar... Should the target be in a situation where there's a clear shot, but with hostages behind him, a cartridge like the .223 (35-40 gr.), .22-250 (40 gr.) or .17 Mach IV could minimize the penetration problems, altho the hostages would likely need a shower afterward.

Only rarely should a tactical marksman need to make shots at distance.
 
RickD,

The .300 WSM should combine .308 accuracy with .300 Win Mag ballistics. In a short action. The .308 is at its best within 800 yards. The .300 WSM should add several hundred yards to the .308s performance. My vote is for the .300 WSM as the best all-around sniper round.
 
Now what kind of bullet?

I was thinking about the type of bullet you would want to use to incapacitate someone. I have a .308 and have several different loads for the gun.

On Coyotes I have found the Speer 125 gr TNT HP to be rather devistating. We are talking 4-5" diameter exit wounds! I wonder how much of that bullet really exits and what kind of effects it would have on secondary hits like a hostage or another suspect on the exit side. I have also hit a coyote dead on in the chest and there was no exit wound! His insides must have been complete mush. I have also used the Hornady 110 gr VMAX on one coyote and numerous squirrels. Pretty much the same result as the Speer Hollowpoints. I think Hornady even makes a tactical application 110 grain load that I just might think is the 110 gr V-Max! We should research that some more.

Then we have your basic Sierra HPBT match bullet. I have used a Sierra 168 HPBT moly match bullet to shoot a coyote. The results were not spectacular. I shot a little low, but I watched the coyote run off into the distance with a slight limp. I repeated nearly the same shot a few months later with one of the Speer 125's and the coyote went about 3 yards. Both times the coyote was still alive, but with the 125, he didn't go far.

With that in mind, the match bullets produce much tighter groups out of my Rem 700, but their stopping power seem to be severely limited. I would imagine I would be able to incapacitate a suspect at 100-200 yards with a relatively easy head shot with the Sierra 168's or 175's. But what if it is not head shot?

Next, I have also loaded Sierra 165 gr Spitzer (softpoint) Boattails. These bullets have performed rather well at 100 yards. The only problem there is I would imagine they probably are going to overpenetrate a target being a rather heavy bullet designed to hold together through a deer.

Maybe I am just a morbid individual, but I know some of you probably wonder the same thing. How much of a difference have bullet types played in actual shooting situations? What are the projected results of using different types of bullets?
 
The "perfect" tactical rifle is semi-auto, MOA. I have 2.

One is a Knight SR-25, in 308. Will hold 20 rounds in one mag, shoot MOA and has very high "cool" factor.

My second tactical rifle, and one which goes on patrol with me is an Olympic Arms AR-15 in 6X45 caliber. MOA, has a Trijicon TA-11 scope. Will do nicely out to 300 yards for precision work, but also can be used as an entry gun on warrant service, or permiter work, or other police work.

For those of you who are uneducated about the 6X45, it is simply a 223 case necked up to take 6mm bullets, in my case, I use Sierra 85gr Game Kings. All it takes to build the gun is a barrel swap. Ammo can be purchased from a company in TX, Performance Plus, or you can make your own. RCBS makes the dies.

The ability to follow-up with another accurate shot within .5 to one second makes bolt guns obsolete. :-)

Marty
 
Can you shoot that quick accurately?

Now the gun makes it possible to shoot again in .5-1 second, but are you ready? And I can reload a bolt gun in probably 2-3 seconds. Sure that time means a lot due simply to the fact that every second counts, but is it that much of a big deal? How quickly can you get your crosshairs back onto the target and squeeze off another shot is more important than how quick the rifle shoots in my opinion. I can fire 5 rounds in five seconds and miss all five just as quickly as shooting two rounds from a bolt gun and getting 2 hits. Any gun will do if you will!
 
I remember being at an advanced LE sniper class and one of the exercises was a team exercise, shooting multicolored helium ballons at about 200 yards.

4 guys on the team, 4 teams, all shooting at once, for a total of 16 shooters with 16 baloons. The drill was at the go signal, the team to shoot thier 4 ballons first won the contest, BTW, there was a pretty gusty wind, making misses fairly common place.

I can recall shooting my balloon, and then picking up any misses from the other team, still beating the other teams.

Given a solid rest, I see no problem with the second shot happening within a second, and to me, that is very comforting.

Marty
 
Marty,
My second tactical rifle, and one which goes on patrol with me is an Olympic Arms AR-15 in 6X45 caliber. MOA, has a Trijicon TA-11 scope. Will do nicely out to 300 yards for precision work, but also can be used as an entry gun on warrant service, or permiter work, or other police work.
Click to expand...
Cool! Tell us more about this rifle/caliber! What kind of terminal ballistics? What kind of muzzle velocity? Ever used it to hunt deer? Standard AR mags feed it reliably? Where did you get the 6mm barrel?

I recall a discussion not long ago about the ideal successor to the 5.56mm NATO... this seems like it might fit the bill nicely.
 
Hm- I see the ideal replacement to the .223 as being 6 to 6.5mm in diameter, and projecting a 100 grain bullet at about 3000 fps. I believe these parameters can be met in a cartridge barely more sizeable than a 7.62x39mm, but that will have longer usuable range and greater sectional density than the 5.56x45mm. Coincidentally, I should be having my GP rifle built this year- in .250/3000 Ackley Improved!

I recently aquired a PSS in .300 WinMag. If you handload, or the round seems around to stay, the .300 Win Short Mag would seem to be the way to go.

You need to look at your objectives, then find a gun to meet them, not get a cool gun, and then fit your doctrine to it.
If I were a police officer, I would carry my 1895G. I can shoot just over minute-of-angle at 100 yards with 300 grain Georgia Arms HP's with him...I've named him "One-Timer" after seeing what happened to deer hit with said round.
 
What I should have said is we are all sugjesting great rifles calibers, they are all good choices of weapons.They all come from the factory as close to perfect as possible. But in the end it is the you choose to reload or buy that is the means of dropping you MOA. Unless of course you have the buck to send it to the shop and write a check to pay for the rifle again). That and you trigger, breathing and the ability to slow you heart down went shooting extreme long distances. The load, bullet weight and charge are the big factors. I feel more comfortable with the heft and heat disapation of the heavier bull style bulls. I just think the .308 and the 163-169 grain bullets can and do carry further using SPBT. The load makes the kill, the rifle comes to us far better than a lot of us (myself included) will ever be able the shoot them.....
I have a darn good .308 Match reload if anyone would be interested. It came from 19 years of experience from a friend looking for the perfect load for his .308 rifles and his ability.

[Edited by Karsten on 01-25-2001 at 04:49 PM]
 
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