Penetration criteria, to what "depths" do you take it?

L

long shot

New member
Light & fast, slow & heavy, shallow or deep.

Both "camps" present opinion swaying data on the matter, and both have major agencies to point to when stating their differing cases. Fackler/IWBA (FBI) & M&S (Border Patrol).

Just curious as to which school of thought everyone subscribes to, & why?

Good Shootin'
{long shot}
 
Slow Heavy and large.Why?Frontal area I think makes the kentic energy transfer to target faster and transfers all the energy to target.If you can get a round 3 to 8 inches in target thats all that is needed.ANything over that is a waste of energy that could be transfered to target.
Slow allso does not deflect as bad as light and fast.Good for windows and such.
Open to augument but this is my opinion.I have arrived at this opinion over many years of reading and studing.
45 acp to me if the best around.Proven for over 90 years so record is hard to beat.


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Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Being new to the forum and having recently sat on a murder jury I'll venture an answer.

When I got off the jury I shot up all the fancy bullets I had except for the "safety slugs" in my wife's carry gun. For me its only off the shelf hardball ammo for now on.

Is it "Judge we can plainly see the defendant shot the most vicious expanding bullets he could find..." or "he was so afraid for his life he grabbed a clip of common target bullets to put in his pistol"? Nothing at all to do with ballistics.
 
6;
To some extent I will agree but!The ball ammo might get you killed.What would you rather be,dead of in front of a jury?I could only hope that there are some of my PEERS in the jury and not a jury of sheeple.

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Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Back in the 60s I became quite a disciple of the magnum rifle craze, so I wrote a letter to Roy Weatherby asking him why his high velocity projectiles supposedly "killed" game quicker than a slower bullet. I was surprised to receive a personal letter from him describing what I believe he called hydrostatic shock, or the effect of very high velocity bullets on some type of water-bearing mass, i.e., animals (and it follows that two legged animals would fall into that category). He was convinced that such an effect occurred. I personally believe there is something to this line of reasoning IN HIGH VELOCITY RIFLE BULLETS. Written accounts of military snipers often told of upper torso shots (when a cranial shot was impossible) that dropped a person instantly.

I am less convinced that a pistol bullet has the type of "energy transfer" that occurs in high velocity projectile strikes.

Therefore, for me, I usually rely on one of three calibers: 45 ACP, 45 Colt, or 44 Special. I do use some type of premium HP bullet in each, thereby covering my fanny (hopefully) by using big as well as expanding. As I said in a previous post, I am less concerned with "this bullet" or "that bullet" and have become VERY concerned with my ability to place my shot where I want it to go under any conceivable situation.

From competence comes security. It does not come from buying the latest magic bullet. Therefore, for me, fast or slow is really a moot point

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The real democratic American idea is, not that everyman shall be on a level with every other, but that every one shall have liberty, without hindrance, to be what God made him . . . H.W. Beecher
 
If that kind of thing bothers you, then find out the brand/type ammo the local leo's are issued. Or the state police, or the FBI.
 
Hunters and poachers have educated me.

Big and slow projectiles to body mass (12 gauge slugs) will very often let the animal go 100 yards after a hit... sometimes just walking and more if they are on the run when hit.

Very high speed to body mass (.308, 22-250, 7mm, 8mm and Weatherbys etc.) will usually anchor the animal withing a dozen steps of where it is hit.

Small and fast to center of the head (brain that is) done with a .22 LR drops the animal like a stone about 80% of the time and within a second step another 10% of the time.

Really fast and small 22-250 to the head blows the skull up and drops the animal in it's tracks about 99% of the time.

In summation shot placement (cranial) rules and after that speed in most cases -- regarding non-human living targets. The Germans did extensive testing on live human targets and with body shots opted for the 9mm. However with shot placement to the cranium they used .32 most frequently according to my Nazi historian correspondent.

I opt for the Makarov; fairly light and fairly slow and VERY accurate and reliable with intention and practice to have good shot placement. When I have to carry (working in the gun shop) and have my choice of anything; I have a Mossburg Defender loaded with PMC #8 beside me and a Makarov on my belt.

Before my love affair with the dependability and accuracy of the Makarov I carried a Glock 19 with high speed hollow points at the shop.

I don't argue with those who revere the .45 as the most important aspect of all is to have the one you trust, can hit with, and find to be the most reliable.


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Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
 
Jody;
Please got to "the hunt" and then go to "explain this"
The topic deals with high power rifle hits on game animals.I think you will find it interesting to say the least.

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Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
I personally don't care, as long as the round has penetration sufficient to get into major organs. Without that, nothing else really matters.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I should just keep my mouth shut but ahhh what the heck life`s short. :) #1 of course shot placement is the most critial thing, this is a given IMO. In any discussion like this someone is bound to equate hardball with great marksmanship and JHPs with sloppy shooting. I dunno why. :rolleyes: Handguns are lousy stoppers no matter what you shoot in them but I feel it`s worth getting all the edge I can. Modern hollowpoints are everybit as reliable in any gun worth trusting your life to so using hardball for reliability is a non issue. JHPs are also easily defended in court *if* the proper defense is used. You may or may not like Mas Ayoob but he`s spent a LOT of time in courts all over the country proving this without a doubt. JHPs are used because they "penetrate less and stop a target faster negating extra followup shots". This makes it "safer for bystanders" and is the "responsible thing to do". Which is why "police depts. all over the country use or have switched to JHPs." That`s the basic defence in a crude nutshell. Now that you`re loaded up with JHPs,what to pick? Modern JHPS are very reliably expanders so long as they have enough velocity and don`t clog up with cloth etc. For this reason I like a JHP with some good velocity to it as a rule (light to med. weight and possibly +P) so they have a larger margin for error. However if they`re too light and fast the can expand too rapidly and fragment,not reaching vital organs. For this reason I don`t use say 90gr.+P 9mm or Glasers Magsafes etc. To my way of thinking 10"-12" of penetration in ord. gel. is fine. After shooting throught clothing they`ll generally penetrate more anyway and most BGs wear cloths so.... I`ll generally chose the 10" loads for pocket guns like my P-11 that loose a bunch of velocity due to their short barrels so they end up being 12"(or something like that) loads anyway due to less velocity and expansion. There are those who`ll argue deeper penetration is necessary but if you take a ruler and place it around your body here and there you have to get pretty creative to find a way that 12" wouldn`t hit the vitals (unless you`re a REALLY BIG guy!). Yes you could hit an outstretched arm or something but then deflection becomes as much of an issue as penetration and we have no control over that,plus who`s gonna fire just one shot when their life`s on the line? If you fire at a target with an arm drawn on it (as if the target were standing sideways) and tripple tap it as fast as you can (you`re simulation a life and death situation remember) I bet you`ll find they don`t all hit the limb anyway. That being said I`ll take all the expansion and tissue damage I can get so long as it penetrated enought. For me this means 115gr.+P 9mm (124gr.+P would be okay with me in full size guns), 155gr.JHP .40, and 185gr.-200gr.+P .45 ACP. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. .45ACP 230gr. Hydrashok is one of them,they do eveything I like without the added recoil of +Ps so I often carry them in my .45 as well. If the barrel were any shorter than it`s 4" I`d probably stick to the 185gr.-200gr.s. This is simply my own way of handling the issue but the kinds of loads I favor tend to be supported by M&S and slews of law enforcement agencies so I guess I`m not too far off base. :) I`m not out to step on any toes and I`m not gonna argue about it,these are just my opinions take em or leave em. :D Marcus
 
Anyone seen or know of any data on how many bystanders being hit by bullets passing throught an assailiant from a police shooting ?
 
A bullet passing through someone is much less of a problem than bullets that completely miss the intended target.

I firmly believe that the old bugaboo about "overpenetration" is hyped way out of proportion. To the best I have been able to determine, it was a creation of the 1950s when we saw the first generation of the high-velocity hollowpoint designs.

I've never seen a single confirmed case of a handgun bullet penetrating one person and hitting another, unintended target.

Simply put, I would NEVER EVER make a decision on a round based solely on the bullet having too much penetration.

But there is loads of examples for bullets that completely miss the intended target and go on to strike an unintended target.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
A comment about the jury thing: I too was on a jury in a case where the unlamented deceased was severely killed by five hits from a Model 36; HydroShoks.

The issue of the type of bullet was brought up by the prosecution. The defense responded that advertising, and the gun shop owner, had said these were the most effective for self defense; that's why they had been purchased.

In the jury room, it was not an issue even for those who knew little or nothing about guns. And obviously it was not an issue for the four of us who had extensive knowledge...

(We found the defendant not guilty--on account of his daughter done it.)

:), Art
 
Overpenetration of a BG injuring someone else is WAY down on my list of issues but I think it still merits some consideration. Mas Ayoob has compiles literally dozens of cases like this that are documented and in many cases went to court. He invites folks to look up these cases themselves if they don`t believe they`re real. According to NYC Transit Authority 5 of it`s officers during a 2 year period were hit by other officers 147gr.9mm rounds after they penetrated BGs. That`s one of the reasons they went to 115gr.+P+ ammo. It`s certainly true that misses are much more of a threat though,not only are they FAR more common but the rounds have all or almost all of their energy when they hit an unintended target. In the same NYCTA report they claimed 11 cops were hit by other cops missed rounds (and 17 bystanders!). I do`t have access to NYCTA documents so I can`t verify the numbers. Marcus
 
I don't take this topic to any depth. :) By far, the most important things are tactics and accuracy, not your specific bullet choice. Instead of spending endless hours on ammo selection, I buy a quality self-defense round and train and practice.
 
Our local news recently reported an illustrative instance of overpenetration. A young male purchased a new 9mm handgun, and to celebrate threw a party. At this event, the gun was loaded, unloaded, dry fired and generally played with. The owner briefly left the room, and on his return picked up the gun, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger. The bullet passed through his head, through the head of the male sitting next to him, and lodged in the head of the woman sitting next to the middle man. This illustrates many things, among them:
1. Penetration though more than 1 victim, and 2. Darwin's theory of natural selection.
 
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