PC4 - The ideal woman's carbine?

D

Dave3006

New member
I am not trying to stir up a hornets nest. However, many of us have wives that are not exactly crazy about firearms. I am trying to determine the best weapon to arm my wife with in the event of a SHTF situation? I have taught my wife how to operate my Glock 22. She has been shooting with me a few times. But, to be honest, I am less than confident about how she would do in a stressful situation. I think, unless you are motivated to learn and practice alot, a handgun is a poor choice for a defensive firearm. Her marksmanship is marginal under ideal situations. I would not even think about having her try my M1S90. Too big, too much kick. I have a 1894P. I thought that .44 specials would be a good choice. However, a lever action is actually a complicated gun for a non-gun person.

I am leaning towards the PC4 for this purpose. Not too much kick. Much easier to hit with than a handgun under stress. The only thing it has against it is that it is still complicated. I know the .40 cal is not exactly the best stopper.

Does anyone have any better ideas? Here are the ideal criteria:

1. Easy to hit with
2. Simple manual of arms
3. Effectiveness of the round
 
Not a bad choice for guys either.

The .40 is weak---but remember---you'll get 15 to 20% more velocity and energy with the longer barrel. That get's you up 600 foot pounds of muzzle energy with some loads. Not too shabby.
 
If you're wanting a good combination of energy, "handiness", and low recoil, I'd say give the good ol' M1 carbine a look as well.
 
I've been a long time advocate of the PC-4 or PC-9 as a patrol carbine for departments that are "patrol rifle" shy. Go for it and consider putting a holographic sight on it to make for fast handling.
 
I recently chronographed some .40 S&W loads in a PC4 and found that 155 grain Hydra-shocks are getting 1286 fps (avg. 5 shots) in the carbine barrel. I don't think that is too bad for defensive purposes. A 95 grain bullet load that I got (made in Mexico) gets over 1700 fps out of the carbine.
 
Section 1: Stuff I Got That Might Work

I have a PC9 (and matching P89 pistol) , with a $40 red dot.
It kicks (and sounds) about like a staple gun (insert 9mm joke here).
9MM isn't exactly king of the jungle but it is cheap, plentiful and
there are 30 round mags for the Rugers still around.
10 rounds .40 VS. 30 rounds 9mm - hmmmm ?
My mags work just fine and the gun is accurate enough at any "effective distance".
The PC's and red dots are both very user friendly.

Whenever I consider dropping 9mm altogether,
I remember how neat it is to have the same ammo and mags
(10, 15, 20 and 30 rounds) in both pistol and carbine.
I have 2 lady friends that live together nearby - they would get the matching Rugers if TSHTF.
Unless they buy their own - they're both flight attendants and they want to try shooting.

I also have a Thompson M1A1 (45ACP es mas macho !).
It kicks even less - and when you pick one up you'll know why.
Unless your gal can do one-arm push-ups, she might have some trouble holding it steady.
Also 30 round mags.

The M1 carbine is ideal - IF you get a reliable shooter.
They're light, feel good, look cute, not much kick, decent stopper.
When I showed my collection to a lady friend recently, her eyes just lit up at the M1.
She wanted to hold that one. Again, 15/30 rounds.

I think the 44 Mag/Spcl sounds ideal too (I know I want one).
But I have also noticed with a first time lady shooter and a 96/22,
levers may not be as intuitive as I would have thought -
"you mean I have to move this thing every time ?".

After several outings with any of these, I suspect that "operating" the weapon would be a non-issue.
But they should definitely spend time getting comfortable with a gun - even if it's just a 22LR.
" Hey, this is fun ! " is what you want to hear,
and then someday maybe "let's try something bigger".

Simple is a major factor for the "hand-out" weapons (cheap too, of course),
the surplus bolt-guns, the single shot 20 gauge, bowling ball mortars, etc.

-------------------------------------

Section 2: Stuff I Need / Want / Covet That The Wife Might Also Be Able To Shoot

OA98 - AR-style, gas operated pistol - supposedly has almost no recoil.
These retail for $1020, but I've seen them for $2000 at a gun show. What a surprise.
http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html

Put a red dot and a 120 round drum on one of these and I think you'd have a real "crowd pleaser".
FYI - I picked up one of these drums mags at the show this weekend for $125 -
some dealers at the same show were selling them for $400.
Weren't they all $125 a few months ago ?

FYI, Knoxx makes a folding CopStock that's supposed to reduce 12 gauge recoil by 60%.
Their Sidewinder 10 round drum mags are coming soon - another "crowd pleaser".
http://knoxx.com/index.html
 
Dave,

I had a PC-4 (and regret selling it since I've learned that it can be customized to accept Glock magazines). Only problem with it is that it is very heavy for its size. Yes, the detachable mags are nice, but for the money, I'd consider a Marlin 1894P lever action carbine in .44. You can load it with .44 specials to reduce recoil, but these are perfectly adequate for defensive purposes. Load it with .44 mags and you've a decent hunting firearm. If the .44 seems too much, consider one of Marlin's .357/.38special variants.

Advantages: short and handy like any carbine; looks more "PC" (it ain't tactical black); good round capacity; simple and easy to operate; 5 3/4 lbs versus 6 3/8 lbs (unloaded); significantly less expensive.
 
For me personally, I like my 1894P as a PC urban carbine. 9 rounds of .44 magnum is awesome at close range. I can shoot it as fast as a semiauto and it can be topped off easier than magazine fed gun. If I shoot it dry, transition to my handgun.

Unfortunately, a lever gun is complicated to a non-gun person. They can short shuck it. Forget to cycle the action. And, mess up with the hammer.

The thing that makes me hesitate on the PC4 is the less than spectacular pistol round. At close range, you could shoot someone several times and they could keep coming.
 
Interesting thread

With enough prep work to know which end of the weapon to point , it is amazing to note how proficent people of either sex can become in a very short time ...if they are sufficiently frightened!:eek: :)
The M1 Carbine with HP ammo would be my choice for this role.
 
My vote goes to the M1Carbine. Easy to point, easy to operate, not a lot of tiny little parts, and mild report...

Albert
 
I think the PC4 would be a wonderful rifle for your needs. I think it has plenty of power for personal defense and would be a lot easier to hit with than a pistol. I don't see anything complicated about running it at all. It has only one additional control over the Glock pistol and that is a safety. If she has shot an autoloading pistol, I am sure she can master inserting a magazine, racking the bolt and pulling the trigger.
I own the PC9 with the Leupold red dot sight on it. Nice fast little carbine. As mentioned before, the last I checked, 30 round mags were still available from CDNN for a song.
One thing to consider is the addition of a laser. A couple years ago, I bought a High Point 9mm Carbine with laser and a case of PMC ammo for $75. I figured it would make the perfect truck gun. I took a girl I was dating out to give it a try. She had fired guns before but no more than a few shots here and there and actually once took a shot at a deer. She asked me why anyone would want that little flashlight on their gun. I showed her that she could just put the dot on the beer can and fire. A couple hundred rounds later it was too dark to see. I tired it out myself at a later date.

Just a few random numbers, do with them what you will.
.40 S&W; 155 grain bullet from a 4" barrel; 1200 fps. I have no idea how much the longer rifle barrel would add to this but it was stated earlier in this thread 1286.
9mm Luger; 115 grain bullet from a from a 4" barrel 1250. Again, I don't know how much would be added by the longer rifle barrel.
.30 Carbine; 110 grain bullet from a 17 1/2" barrel; 2000 fps.
.357 Mag; 110 grain JHP from a 5.6 " barrel; 2040 fps.
 
Inspector, that's a good gun, but the criteria inherently imply light weight and low recoil--plus it must be simple to operate for a non-gun person.

Art
 
Gotgun, what gun shows are you going to where stuff costs 2X retail????
Around here, show stuff is so cheap that honest dealers can't make a profit.

I keep having jackasses show up from out of town, start carrying the lines I've spent years developing, then undercut me to death.

"We're cheaper," they say.
Sure. They live in a motorhome, have a pension, and don't declare anything on their taxes. I'm cheap myself. I sell $50 knives for $32. But when they're selling them at $28, I can't afford to match them....and I KNOW, with my retail store, that I order in larger quantities than they do.
They're simply idiots. Good for the customer, I suppose, but hard to feed my kids.

I make a point of seeking out reputable dealers, not the cheapest around. Midwest Gun Exchange will never get another cent from me.

Sorry...Rant off. But I'd be amazed if it's costing more at a show than at a real, honest dealer.

BTW: At the risk of starting a war, Bushmaster are crap. Seen 4 uppers where the sights had to be maxed left or right to even print on paper, and a flash suppressor that was angled about 20 degrees.
 
about the pump shotguns -
checkout the site I mentioned about the recoil reduction stocks
a 20 gauge with this stock might be rather tolerable

----------------------------------

as for the gunshow question:

I go to all the Denver area shows -

one dealer in particular is very "creative" with anything semi-exotic
- OA98 for $2000
- 10/22 gatling gun (complete) for $1400
- Romak 3 (dragonuv clone) for $1600

I balked at the Romak price - he said his cost was $1100
"isn't this the same gun I see in S/N every week for $800 ?"
"No - that must be something else"
I checked the other prices when I got home -
too bad - he seemed like such a nice guy

I don't know if they actually sell any of these - I see the same pieces at every show
these could be overpriced attention-getters that they don't really care about selling
many of there normal guns are pretty reasonable

- it seems that several guys have boosted the drum mag prices lately

- overall prices are reasonable
- some bargains here and there
- but lots of full retail and a bit of gouging
- a handful of real knowledgable collectors
- a few "just for the fun of it" traders
- several retail dealers priced at or just below their store prices
- apparently there is plenty of demand around here
 
Moving back to the topic.....

Dave, I went through this process and ended up with a Rossi lever action copy of a M92 in .357.

Unless Taurus has improved the quality, I wouldn't do it again.

My wife was a smart person but not a gun person. Working with her I found that actions that were open and eaisily comprehensible were the best. YMMV. :)

If I could have organized an M1 carbine, that would ge my first choice. The M92 is pretty much second in terms of ease of use, but I had to spend some $$ to get it functionable. If I could have found reliable 10 (+) round mags for a Mini 14, that would have been number 1 choice.

Are M1's still legal in Kali?

Giz
 
Dave3006, since you already have an 1894P, you should have your wife shoot it. You've already identified the tradeoff: cartridge power versus action type. But again, since you already have a lever, let her shoot a bunch of .44 specials through it and see how she does. If you decide to go with a Ruger, the PC-4 has the better punch of the Police carbines. But if you're going to consider a semi-auto at all, is there some reason not to check out a Mini-14 or even a Bushmaster AR-type carbine?
 
Thanks. Good advice. I can't choose the Bushmaster because I am living in occupied kalifornia. I ruled out the Mini-14 because I can't seem to determine if any reliable ten round magazines exist.

It may be best just to have her spend alot of time practicing with .44 specials and load up on .44 mag for the real thing.
 
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