Patriot Act works!

R

rick_reno

Moderator
For those of you who don't think the Patriot Act works - or that it negates certain sections of the Bill of Rights, read these stories. Now we know, it really IS for the children.

Patriot Act Catches a Baby-Food Thief
Tue Apr 04 2006 10:03:08 ET

The case of Samih Jammal, convicted with the help of the Patriot Act and FISA wiretaps of fencing stolen baby formula, sits on the fine line between the government's terrorism-fighting role and its duty to protect citizen's rights.

The WALL STREET JOURNAL reports the use of FISA warrants helped prosecuted Arizona grocery wholesaler Jammal, who was convicted of operating a baby formula theft ring.

The JOURNAL notes that Jammal, a "U.S. citizen born in Lebanon, was never charged with any offense related to terrorism."

Jammal "is appealing, contending that FISA evidence used against him was illegally obtained and crippled his defense. ... 'It's baby formula of mass destruction here,' he said at one pretrial hearing."


14 arrested in sales of stolen infant formula
The Business Journal of Phoenix - July 30, 2003

A Mesa businessman is accused of heading a ring that made millions off stolen or fraudulently obtained infant formula, the United States Attorney's Office for Arizona announced Wednesday.

Thirty-four-year-old Samih Jamal and 13 other people have been arrested as part of a Joint Terrorism Task Force investigation. Susan Hershkowitz declined to comment to local news media on why the task force was involved in the investigation.

Twenty-one additional search warrants were executed in the Phoenix area and in Garden Grove, Calif., related to this case.

The U.S. Attorney's Office said the infant formula theft ring made $11 million dollars since it began operations in late 1997.
 
I can see a national security issue with tons of stolen baby formula.

If the baby formula was tampered with before being resold to venders the result would have been hundreds if not thousands of dead American infants.

All of our food & water supplies are very vunerable to terroristic attack and should be guarded vigilantly by the authorities using any and all legal tools at their disposal.
 
Hmmm...the usual "o my god the government is" emotion aside, seems like its a good bust to me. Evidence of a crime frequently unrealted to the intial issue turns up in investigations....are we saying that all of a sudeden thats improper...

Notwithstanding the fact that this whole thread is based on a news article which is typically deficient of fact...

Wildandwrittenona4thgradelevelasweallknowAlaska
 
If the baby formula was tampered with before being resold to venders the result would have been hundreds if not thousands of dead American infants.
Click to expand...
You are kidding, yes? I love how these statements are always prefaced by the catch-all "[What] If". Obviously, under the What If Doctrine, PATRIOT should be limited only by the limits of our own fertile and frightened imaginations.

Have you any idea of the number of factory workers in the food industry with access to foodstuffs distributed nationwide? What about the pharmaceutical industry? Remember Tylenol? How about Postal Workers? Remember Anthrax in Boca Raton?

Are you suggesting that PATRIOT and FISA should include their phone calls and emails as reasonable targets of investigation? Come to think of it, what work are you engaged in, Pup? Let's see if you fit the "Potential Profile for Access".

:rolleyes:
Rich
 
Rich,

"What if thinking" is very important post Sept 11th 2001.

Our adversaries are busy thinking up "what if scenarios" and we should be too.
 
Sound Byte absent rational substance.
You carefully avoided responding to any of my specific questions as to how far you would support this "What If" kneejerk, after-the-fact reaction to such government actions.

Carry on.
Rich

ps: Another question for avoidance:
They used FISA to investigate a person on American soil. They found no evidence of terrorist ties, but did link him to what appears to be Welfare Fraud. Sooooo, how many other investigations of your neighbors might you think have occurred absent any charges of dastardly Baby Formula theft?

Don't answer that. It's rhetorical, in your case, answered by the Catch All for the What IF Doctrine: "But if you have nothing to hide...." :D
 
I'd been hearing more and more about how the patriot act has been used less on terrorism and more on day to day crimes...While this might be great for a little while (take down some meth dealers or corrupt politicians...yeah right), how long before using the patiot act for surveilance becomes (even more) commonplace?
 
They used FISA to investigate a person on American soil. They found no evidence of terrorist ties, but did link him to what appears to be Welfare Fraud. Sooooo, how many other investigations of your neighbors might you think have occurred absent any charges of dastardly Baby Formula theft?
Click to expand...

Um Rich I dont think it is necessarily a given that the Defendant here was a subject of a FISA warrant....(at least we dont know at this point)...

Curious..are you saying that info developed from a legtimate FISA warrant cant be used in the process of an investigation on US soil?

WildlessgrouchytodayAlaska
 
:wonderifanyofthemoneyfromthestolenstuffgoestosupportterroristactivity: :confused:

What if elphants could fly ? Do we wiretap all the zoos to prevent terrorists from using them as weapons?
 
Um Rich I dont think it is necessarily a given that the Defendant here was a subject of a FISA warrant.
Click to expand...
Ummm, Wild, you mean it would be OK if he wasn't the "subject" but just got caught up by PATRIOT/FISA taps during a routine tapping drive-by of no one in particular?
After all, the report claims he was "convicted with the help of the Patriot Act and FISA wiretaps".

Curious..are you saying that info developed from a legtimate FISA warrant cant be used in the process of an investigation on US soil?
Click to expand...
Nope, but I thought the bigger issue might be protecting Americans freedoms from an ever-invasive Nanny-State rather than Crimes against Infant Formula Manufacturers.

Right back atcha, Wild: Are you saying that the end justifies the means? That seems to be the logical conclusion of your reasoning here.
Rich
 
Ummm, Wild, you mean it would be OK if he wasn't the "subject" but just got caught up by PATRIOT/FISA taps during a routine tapping drive-by of no one in particular?
Click to expand...

Well here is a scenario: Abdul talking to Jamal between Afghanistan and Iraq, overheard in a FISA eavesdrop. One call mentions that Abdul is about to get money from his cousing Mahmoud the Milkman in AZ. Mahmud is found to have sent money to his cousin via another cousin Jabar. Jabar is caught leaving the country with $20,000 in his sock, not declared. Jabar facing prosecution, flips and becomes a CI. He must remain confidential. Jabar tells the agents that Mahmoud the Milkman is involved in theft and fraud to get the money he sends to Mahmoud. Mahmoud then becomes the subject of a Patriot Act eacesdropping warrant. They bust him, but to protect Jabar and ongoing investigations they charge him with only the theft and fraud, not the terrorist stuff.

Is this an oK scenario from your perspective?

WildyikesrichyablewmyfingersoutonthisoneAlaska
 
Right back atcha, Wild: Are you saying that the end justifies the means? That seems to be the logical conclusion of your reasoning here.
Click to expand...

OK Ran out of finger stregnth...nope thats not what Im saying. :)

WildparalyzedAlaska
 
Rich,

I mearly stated I could see a "national security reason" to investigate *tons* of stolen baby formula post Sept 11th 2001.

If you disagree then you disagree, no need to attack me about it.
 
Of course it's possible, Wild. Not only is it possible, but the circularity of the logic makes it infallible....and just a bit laughable.

Lessee how this works:
PATRIOT and FISA are designed to allow the Executive broad powers to nibble heretofore sacrosanct areas of the Bill of Rights in its continuing War to stop the Reign of Daily Terrorism that grips this Nation (all, of course, while guaranteeing Truth, Justice and The American Way).

Now, if those Terrorism tools happen to ensnare someone for, say, book-making, adding a pistol grip to the wrong firearm or more heinous crime like Infant Formula Theft, we need not be concerned. You see, by definition, we know such convictions must have been the by-product of a bona-fide and active Terror investigation....though no Terrorism charges have been brought. It's just "the way the system works". And, if the "perp" is possessed of an Arab name (today, Arab; tomorrow Jew, Hispanic, French or Balkan), so much less reason to raise an eyebrow.

Nope, nothing to see here, folks. WA has shone the harsh Light of Truth on this Tin Foil Hat Conspiracy. :D
Rich
 
Of course it's possible, Wild. Not only is it possible, but the circularity of the logic makes it infallible....and just a bit laughable.
Click to expand...

Lot of Federal (and state) criminal investigations are laughable then Rich because many of the start just like that....

Now, if those Terrorism tools happen to ensnare someone for, say, book-making, adding a pistol grip to the wrong firearm or more heinous crime like Infant Formula Theft, we need not be concerned. You see, by definition, we know such convictions must have been the by-product of a bona-fide and active Terror investigation....though no Terrorism charges have been brought. It's just "the way the system works". And, if the "perp" is possessed of a Arab name (today, Arab, tomorrow Jew, Hispanic, French or Balkan), so much less reason to raise an eyebrow.
Click to expand...

Still no answer Rich...assuming thats a bona fide scenario I gave you..rhetoric aside...is it OK...?

Nope, nothing to see here, folks. WA has shone the harsh Light of Truth on this Tin Foil Hat Conspiracy.
Click to expand...


Its not the harsh light..its the alternate reality that all should comptemplate when reading media scenarios:D


WildorshallweditchtheentireinvestigatorysystemAlaska
 
Lot of Federal (and state) criminal investigations are laughable then Rich because many of the start just like that
Click to expand...
Finally, we agree on something! :D

As to the rest, you're projecting, Wild:
its the alternate reality that all should comptemplate when reading media scenarios
Click to expand...
The media provided no "scenario"; it provided a "report", whether you choose to believe it or not. 'Twas you who provided a "What If" scenario to demonstrate how false the "report" probably is.

They claim to be dealing in fact.
You admit to be countering with "one possible scenario".

Yet you expect us to discount the report? Not likely.
Rich

ps: Oh, BTW. Note that the "report" is from the Wall Street Journal, not WorldNetDaily.
 
Finally, we agree on something!
Click to expand...

Of course we agree...we just like to argue its far more fun!


Yet you expect us to discount the report? Not likely.
Click to expand...

Not at all (especially because its not the NY Times:D or World Net daily ) I'm just offering the "how"...fleshing out the story so to speak.

Is it as likely the whole scene was legally legit vis a vis legally illegit? Ie is my report of conduct as likely as theirs?

And still the question Rich....is my scenario a bona fide excersize of police power

WildihaveanoriginalithacadeerslayerinmygreasyhandsnyahnyahAlaska
 
I'd been hearing more and more about how the patriot act has been used less on terrorism and more on day to day crimes...While this might be great for a little while (take down some meth dealers or corrupt politicians...yeah right), how long before using the patiot act for surveilance becomes (even more) commonplace?
Click to expand...

What has always piqued my curiosity is how in the world was an 800 page document put together, and ready to be voted on in a matter of weeks? I am the only one that thinks this is a bit odd? Our government most likely couldn't put together a one page fax cover letter that everyone would agree on in a matter of weeks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top