PA, MI, WI hunters

L

Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret

New member
I have a nefarious theory: 20 years ago in Wisconsin, doe tags were hard to come by. There was a lottery the few available. In the last half decade or so in the zone I hunt in, there were at least 7,000 available even a month before the season started. If someone wanted to shrink the size of the herd; this would be the way to do it.

Has the same thing happened in PA and MI?

Could the billion dollar car insurance conglomerate bribe the Dept of Natural Resources to inflate the size of the herd, thereby allowing hunters to help out in getting the number of car/deer accidents to drop?

There are some interesting tidbits in this report on car/deer accidents in WI:


http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/motorist/crashfacts/docs/deerfacts.pdf

-Almost 19,000 deer accidents in 2012
-Figure 4 shows the numbers aren't dropping all that fast.
-Notice in Figure 5 that there is a clearly defined "Deer are not mobile between 8 am and 4 pm" lull in the day.
-That graphic on the top isn't a whitetail.

Here's an article from PA


http://www.edgarsnyder.com/blog/2013/10/17-pennsylvania-car-deer-crashes.html

According to a new report by State Farm insurance, Pennsylvania had the most deer-vehicle accidents in the nation, with an estimated 115,000 such collisions last year. Michigan was in second-place, coming in with 77,000 collisions.
Click to expand...



The season marks the peak time for deer-vehicle collisions in Pennsylvania, which accounted for more than $400 million in damages last year.
Click to expand...


If I were at the controls of the insurance industry; I could afford , and be motivated, to buy-off the process by which doe tags are available. To be fair, it seems the herd really is enormous and cars kill way more deer than hunters. Has the number of tags available in PA and MI spiked since the 90's?
 
Michigan has given doe permits out like candy for years and yes I think car deer accidents are a big part of that. I don't know how Michigan hunters would know if herd numbers are inflated because our state does an awful job of monitoring numbers to begin with. Unlike some states, Michigan doesn't have mandatory check in of kills nor do they require turn in of unused tags. This year they went from unlimited doe tags to 10 per person per season in most areas. Some areas where they have had wasting disease and TB they still allow unlimited. However, this is also the first year Michigan is starting QDM. In the Northwestern lower pennisula the first buck has to have 3 or better points on a side and state wide the second buck has to be 4 or better on a side.

I would have to say in general terms, that in the last 10 years there has been a pretty aggressive move to reduce the herd. Look how antlerless tags are available in Michigan.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/11WCO2013_Antlerless_License_Quotas_427120_7.pdf

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2013_Antlerless_Deer_Drawing_431824_7.pdf

Add up the total availability of antlerless tags at the bottom of the 2nd attachment.
 
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To be fair, it seems the herd really is enormous and cars kill way more deer than hunters.
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Not even close. During opening WEEKEND in Wisconsin, there were over 118,000 deer harvested this year. And that was down 18% from last year! In 2010, there were over 333,000 whitetails taken during gun season alone. I'd say it's safe to say hunters kill WAY more deer than cars do. At least in our state.
 
I'm not from any of those states, I'm from NY, and yes, they keep giving out more and more doe tags each year! I'm getting ready to go out now, but I'm usually done on opening day! The size of the herd doesn't align with the amount of tags given out!!
 
PA divided the state up into what they call Wildlife Management Units(WMU).

Each WMU has "X" amount of doe permits. It is done on a "lottery" in that you send an application to a county treasurer with $6.70. As long as there are permits available you get one.
Then in August there is a second "lottery", where you can put in for a second doe permit if one is available for that area. Yup, $6.70 again... lol

There are I believe 3 areas that you can pretty much get a doe permit anytime. Being around Philly, Lancaster, and the south west of the state.

However state game lands during hunting season resemble pumpkin patches with all the blaze orange!!! People literally sitting within 20 yrds or closer to each other with high power rifles. :eek:

I look to get as far off of the beaten path as possible!!!
 
Here in Pennsylvania, the Game Commission has increased doe tags by the thousands. Reasons given include halting the deforestation by an oversize deer herd. Input from Penn State University foresters was a major factor with these decisions.

There are significantly LESS deer within the central state mts than before the program which is seen negatively by the majority of hunters. But the most overpopulated zones are largely semi-urban areas where most lands are posted and deer hunting is banned by private land owners. Dumb but true.

I archery hunt in northern Maryland for the most part where deer are plentiful and hunters are seldom seen. This is public land, too.

Jack
 
I have a nefarious theory: 20 years ago in Wisconsin, doe tags were hard to come by. There was a lottery the few available. In the last half decade or so in the zone I hunt in, there were at least 7,000 available even a month before the season started. If someone wanted to shrink the size of the herd; this would be the way to do it.
Click to expand...


You ain't been hunting Wisconsin long enough. 20 years ago doe tags were not hard to come by. In southern farm areas there were more available than ever got used. Difference then, was they were $12 a piece, now they give you two "herd control" tags free with your license for those same areas. Doe tags in some quota areas are less than 20 years ago and some are more. Those with tags remaining after the lottery(yes, most regular units STILL have a lottery for antlerless tags) had tags left over even back then. If you go back 40 years ago you may have an argument. Go back 50 years ago and you get to the time when 4 hunters had to apply together for a "party" permit and the chance to shoot an antlerless deer. Even then most "parties" only got a permit every other year. The reason for the dramatic increase in doe tags has several causes. The first is the explosion of the deer population over the last 50 years in southern part of the state. Places where land owners used to go north to Conover or BRF to hunt deer, now hold more deer than anyplace in the state. Add to this that herd management ideas have changed. Game managers know more now about carrying capacity and healthy buck/doe ratios. Instead of having 60 deer per Sq mile consisting of 55 does and 5 bucks, that die off when there are two successive hard winters or no acorns, they strive for 40 deer per sq mile consisting of 25 does and 15 bucks. They kill they same amount of deer, just a more balanced kill. Game managers also have to please more than just the hunters that want to see 40 deer a day while hunting. They have to please the farmers that sustain crop damage and have to keep car/deer collisions to a minimum. Consider the fact that we still continue to kill over 350,000 deer a year, even with liberal doe tags, is testament that those in charge are doing a good job. What we as hunters need to realize is that if the area we hunt is being over hunted, we do not need to kill every deer we see. One reason Bass and Musky fisheries are doing so well in the state has nuttin' to do with size or bag limits, but because of self imposed fisherman restraints and catch and release. Just because there are doe tags left means we can't buy one and not use it if we do not see enough deer in the field to justify using it.
 
^^Buck pretty much nailed it, for WI anyway.
I see just as many deer now as I did 25 years ago when I started hunting ( saw 16 deer this morning in about 4 hours)
On the 300 acre farm that 6 of us hunt, we use our own judgment in regulating the deer we take. And we always have a lot to choose from.

I hear a lot of hunters claiming that the DNR is trying to kill off the herds. I'm not seeing it in my area.
 
^^I guess my post makes it wound like that.:o
I deer hunt on that 300 acres as well as small game hunt. But I also small game hunt, hike, 4x4, and morel hunt on several properties around the SW Wisconsin and SE Minnesota. I spend a lot of time in the woods, and I usually see deer everywhere in decent numbers.......even public land.

Most of the complaining I hear seems to come from folks that spend 2-3 days in the woods each year. "I was out there all day and didn't see anything.." Then they give up and go to the tavern to rant about the DNR "Killing off all the deer."

I understand that some folks are stuck on public hunting land, or smaller areas that may be over-hunted or pressured too much. But trust me, the deer are out there.
 
I don't know about the other states, but in PA on public land, "The deer are out there" is nonsense. The question is: Are the deer out there on public land in HUNTABLE numbers. The whole object of sport hunting is to trim the excess wildlife. Selling tens of thousands of tags to kill off an overpopulation of deer in areas where you cannot hunt just does not work. When PA started with the liberal doe tags everybody and his brother bought a bunch and then went to public land because there was nowhere else to go. If I get off a couple days, I usually do OK., but I really have to look hard to even see a deer some years. The last few years I am seeing more deer because of the low hunting pressure, but they (deer) sure don't bounce back as some people suggest. As for the "Army of orange", I don't see that anymore because of the lack of deer around me. Most of the hunters I run into up here are older and most are pretty sportsman like and friendly. Two years ago I hunted on some private land bordered by other private land on the Bucks County border (Special Regs) and I can tell you that the @#$holes you private property guys are always talking about ARE the private property hunters.
 
study

Seems like I just read a comprehensive study, where tagged deer and turkey were tracked and cause of death determined.

By far and away the biggest deer kill numbers were those killed by hunters. ( and violators).

Cars were next.

Not sure what state, PA I think. Guess you could write it off as propaganda, but that's what the numbers said.
 
I can agree with that. I once had 2 weeks off to hunt in PA. Over a two week period, there were a lot of doe killed on the mountain I hunted. If someone only hunted 2 days, the amount of deer drug off would seem small, but add up two weeks of doe hunting and the number gets a lot bigger.
 
My official scientific study for PA:
I hunt 280 private acres in Tioga county. Out of our club of 12 guys only 2 deer (1b,1d) were harvested as of Wed. I did see 4 "Y" bucks (not shooters) and one 50lb class doe. Others had similar sightings on our land. The ride home to S. NJ takes me through the eastern corridor of PA. Out of about 30 hunter vehicles (orange coats or other tell tail sign) I only saw one deer (buck) tide to a trailer. In the past I have seen car to deer ratio of about 50/50. I am hopeing that the same doesnt hold true here in S NJ when I make it out tomorrow and the rest of the month.
 
Michigan has had EHD in the deer herd for a few years now. The dnr is NOT giving out any idea of a realistic fatality count for deer loss from it.
1. they dont want to do a count
2. they have no real realisitc way of counting the loss of deer because there has never been an actual deer count done.

they say my area has x deer per square mile. however i only see (x/20) deer per 2 acres.
 
My 2 cents

Obvioulsy the 9 day gun deer season just ended here in WI. I live in the middle of the Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest which covers more than 1.5 million acres of Wisconsin's Northwoods. I decided not to deer hunt this year. Last year I hunted and the deer herd was thin in my opinion. I have talked with many of my friends and other people and asked they opinion in regard to the deer numbers. There is a common feeling that the deer number in our area are not anywhere near what they were years ago. I have a good friend that was born here and has lived here his whole life and has hunted every year since he was able to. He hunts with several relatives and family friends and they have a track record of harvesting game. They are avid hunters that hunt bear, deer, turkey, coyote, coon, pretty much everything. They are also loggers that spend significant time in the woods all year long. They attribute much of their success to the amount of time they spend in the woods and their knowledge of them. This is the first year in his entire life when their group did not harvest one deer in their group. He is a firm believer that the deer herd in our area is getting smaller ever year. He mentioned he was in his stand the entire day on opening day and only heard five gun shots all day long. I remember when I first started hunting in the late 70's and opening day was like a war zone. You would here shooting from very early to late and if it was 5-10 minutes and you didn't hear a shot that was a long time. We used to go shining at night and it was very common to see dozens of deer in a field and hundreds in a night of shining. Many of the fields we used to shine now you are lucky to see a deer in them. I also drive a lot for my work and I don't see anywhere near the number of deer or road kills that I used to see years ago. In my opinion the deer herd is significantly reduced from what it was 30 years ago.
 
Originally posted by RoosterBooster3632:

I remember when I first started hunting in the late 70's and opening day was like a war zone. You would here shooting from very early to late and if it was 5-10 minutes and you didn't hear a shot that was a long time. We used to go shining at night and it was very common to see dozens of deer in a field and hundreds in a night of shining. Many of the fields we used to shine now you are lucky to see a deer in them. I also drive a lot for my work and I don't see anywhere near the number of deer or road kills that I used to see years ago. In my opinion the deer herd is significantly reduced from what it was 30 years ago.
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Unfortunately for folks your age or that started hunting during the deer boon of the eighties and early 90s here in Wisconsin, odds are you will never see deer in numbers like that again. Not only were there more deer, but there was excessively more deer. Buck doe ratios were terribly lopsided and most quota areas were 50-100% over their desired population goals. As I said earlier, to appreciate the numbers of deer we have and the multiple opportunities to hunt deer we have today , one should have hunted deer in the 50s and sixties. When I first started hunting deer in Wisconsin the total kill was about 65,000 animals in the state ....total. When I was 14, I got my first buck with a bow. There was less than 100 deer taken in the state during archery season that year. Now they average 100,000 a year.....a thousand times more. One need not wonder why there are fewer bucks left for gun season. The year I graduated from high school there were about 73,000 deer shot during gun season. In 2000, gun hunters shot almost 530,000 animals. Almost half a million more. During this time of glut, crop damage soared along with astronomical car/deer collisions and both CWD and EWD have made into the herd. Both are diseases contributed to high density populations. While hunters enjoyed seeing lots of deer, farmers and insurance companies started to see them as pests. The herd needed to be trimmed and it has been. Add to that, record numbers of Black Bear that live predominately on fawns in the spring and numbers of wolves in the state just starting to be controlled. Different types of logging practices in the big northern woods create less browse and other feed. Combined with a coupla rough winters the northern herd has really dived.

There still are plenty of deer out there to hunt and the quality of the hunt has not diminished. Deer may not be as numerous, but the increased challenge should make for more satisfaction when one is successful. As I said before, using one's judgement as whether or not to shoot, depending on numbers of deer in the area is critical and more important for keeping numbers up in high pressured areas than memories of the good old days when all one had to do was walk in the woods. Not a bad thing to be not only a good hunter, but a responsible hunter. If one wants, they could hunt deer continuously in the state from early September thru the first week in January. This could not be true if there weren't any deer to hunt. While small parcels and public land has fewer deer than two decades ago, they still hold deer in hunt-able numbers. If they don't there are others that do. One thing we are fortunate for in Wisconsin is a fair amount of public land with decent hunting on it. RoosterBooster3632, living where you do, you have more public land by you, than you could ever hunt in a lifetime. Yeah, there are fewer deer than there were, but there is also tons more deer than when deer hunting became a tradition here in Wisconsin.
 
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