breakthrough
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are you NOT supposed to shoot these ammo in certain guns? why?
what is + p and + p + ammo anyway?
what is + p and + p + ammo anyway?
+ p, + p +, Ammo?
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+P is a hotter load than normal. There is a SAAMI spec for +P in only 4 cartridges 9x19, .38spc, .38 Super, and .45 ACP. Although ammo manufacturers use the +P name as a selling point in other cartridges there is NO SAAMI spec for those other loadings - just marketing hype.
+P+ is TOTAL marketing hype with no underlying SAAMI spec.
Therefore, if you are wanting use +P in one of those 4 cartridges make sure your firearm is +P rated. Other +P loads and ALL +P+ loads are outside of industry standards and you really don't know what you are getting.
+P+ is TOTAL marketing hype with no underlying SAAMI spec.
Therefore, if you are wanting use +P in one of those 4 cartridges make sure your firearm is +P rated. Other +P loads and ALL +P+ loads are outside of industry standards and you really don't know what you are getting.
breakthrough
Moderator
glock says don't shoot any p ammo in any glock, correct?
Not all hype, some makers, like Speer, do have a rating for it, in this case, 40,000 psi. At least that was the figure they gave me when I was asking.
"Most" gun makers say not to use reloads and some say no +P or hotter. I think "most" of the current guns, will have no troubles with +P, or even +P+.
I have a couple of Glocks that have tens of thousands of near +P level reloads, factory +P, and +P+ through them, and they have had no problems.
Glocks do seem to prefer the hotter loadings. My reloads that would cycle my High Powers, HK P7, P38's, etc, would not reliably cycle in my early Glocks. I had to bump things up and load specifically for them.
From Glocks FAQ page.
This is pretty much standard lawyer speak from all manufacturers. Glocks and almost all modern 9mm's were designed to work with NATO spec ammo which is among the hottest loads available.
This is the key
Shooting +P ammo or even +P+ will almost surely not result in a failure in most any handgun, but over time parts MAY wear out sooner. Do you want to replace the gun after 100,000 rounds or 200,000 rounds? Most quality guns won't be hurt with either +P or +P+ enough to matter.
This is pretty much standard lawyer speak from all manufacturers. Glocks and almost all modern 9mm's were designed to work with NATO spec ammo which is among the hottest loads available.
This is the key
Shooting +P ammo or even +P+ will almost surely not result in a failure in most any handgun, but over time parts MAY wear out sooner. Do you want to replace the gun after 100,000 rounds or 200,000 rounds? Most quality guns won't be hurt with either +P or +P+ enough to matter.
I don't think any of it could simply just be called "marketing hype", because you are getting something for it, +P in 9mm for example is anything over 35KPSI and up to 38,500PSI, and of course +P+ would be anything over 38.5kpsi and up to infinity. Just because their is no SAAMI spec for +P and +P+ in a lot of cases, that doesn't mean people simply don't make it. Just find the SAAMI max pressure for x cartridge, and assume that if it's marked +P, that it exceeds that recommended pressure. and if SAAMI "DOES" have a +P spec, then know that a +P+ will be exceeding that max pressure recommendation.
shoot whatever you want, most pistols are strong to the point that you can hardly fit enough powder in a case to blow it up, especially small pistols with standard pistol powders. but know that if you have a major failure while using these types of ammo, the manufacturer may or may not back up the warranty.
shoot whatever you want, most pistols are strong to the point that you can hardly fit enough powder in a case to blow it up, especially small pistols with standard pistol powders. but know that if you have a major failure while using these types of ammo, the manufacturer may or may not back up the warranty.
The original +P+ designation was used for .38 Special ammunition made for LE use only, not for commercial sales, so it was never recognized by SAAMI and no public specifications were released for it. The intent was to give police officers a powerful and effective round that could be used in good condition .38 Special revolvers or in revolvers actually chambered for the .357 Magnum.
The .38 Special +P+ had a public relations benefit when dealing with communities which took offense to the term "Magnum" as indicating the use of excessive force. Its use in modern .38 Special revolvers in good condition should pose no problems, though some makers recommended use only in revolvers made for .357.
AFAIK, the use of "+P+" in other calibers is a manufacturers' advertising term and there are no standards for use of the term and no SAAMI specs for the ammunition.
Jim
The .38 Special +P+ had a public relations benefit when dealing with communities which took offense to the term "Magnum" as indicating the use of excessive force. Its use in modern .38 Special revolvers in good condition should pose no problems, though some makers recommended use only in revolvers made for .357.
AFAIK, the use of "+P+" in other calibers is a manufacturers' advertising term and there are no standards for use of the term and no SAAMI specs for the ammunition.
Jim
Whoever said that +P specs exist for four cartridges had it right. USUALLY, the difference in chamber pressures between standard and +P loadings is that the +P loads will be about 10% higher. The exception is the .38 Spl. +P which is more like 17.5% higher.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/VelocityPressureData.pdf
There seems to be SOME unstated convention about "+P+" specs. The SAAMI specs for 9x19mm standard & +P loads are 35,000psi and 38,500psi, respectively. The UNOFFICIAL BUT COMMONLY SEEN spec for "+P+" loads tend to be 40,000 - 42,000 psi, which equates to 14.3 - 20% over standard pressure specs.
Using the same convention for .38 Spl. means "+P+" is only slightly over specs for +P, so perhaps a more meaningful (but dangerous) convention would be that "+P+" = "+P"(1.1). That means that "+P+" for .38 Special would entail chamber pressures of 22,000 psi (~29% over standard pressure). I might be okay with touching off a hot .38 Spl. in a Detective Special made of tool steel, or an SP-101, but I wouldn't put such a load in a pre-WWII .38 Special and shoot it on a bet. So "+P+" is going to be a while in being defined and accepted.
In any case, the "rule of thumb" for +P is that it is USUALLY 10% over standard pressure. The REALITY of "+P+" is that, for 9x19mm, the chamber pressure could be anywhere from 38,600psi to 55,000 psi. SOME manufacturers treat it as 10 % over +P as a "working agreement", I suppose, and in time, SAAMI may adopt that as a standard for it.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/VelocityPressureData.pdf
There seems to be SOME unstated convention about "+P+" specs. The SAAMI specs for 9x19mm standard & +P loads are 35,000psi and 38,500psi, respectively. The UNOFFICIAL BUT COMMONLY SEEN spec for "+P+" loads tend to be 40,000 - 42,000 psi, which equates to 14.3 - 20% over standard pressure specs.
Using the same convention for .38 Spl. means "+P+" is only slightly over specs for +P, so perhaps a more meaningful (but dangerous) convention would be that "+P+" = "+P"(1.1). That means that "+P+" for .38 Special would entail chamber pressures of 22,000 psi (~29% over standard pressure). I might be okay with touching off a hot .38 Spl. in a Detective Special made of tool steel, or an SP-101, but I wouldn't put such a load in a pre-WWII .38 Special and shoot it on a bet. So "+P+" is going to be a while in being defined and accepted.
In any case, the "rule of thumb" for +P is that it is USUALLY 10% over standard pressure. The REALITY of "+P+" is that, for 9x19mm, the chamber pressure could be anywhere from 38,600psi to 55,000 psi. SOME manufacturers treat it as 10 % over +P as a "working agreement", I suppose, and in time, SAAMI may adopt that as a standard for it.
I have no idea what the threshold of +P is and go by a rule from a Walther P38 shooter. Stay at or below an ME (muzzle energy) of 400 for most shooting for 9mm. Most of the commercial stuff on the market appears to be around an ME of 360 like many defensive loads and target stuff like WWB. Winchester NATO Target is said to have an ME of 396.
My 45ACP LSWC stuff is loaded very light with an ME of about 270 using a very fast powder. All of my 45autos are full size, 5", pistols. The 45auto is the only arm I use lead bullets.
My 45ACP LSWC stuff is loaded very light with an ME of about 270 using a very fast powder. All of my 45autos are full size, 5", pistols. The 45auto is the only arm I use lead bullets.
Ever since Newton and his laws of physics, profession engineers design structures to a load. It is interesting what they did before the laws of "equal and opposite" and "conservation of momentum". They basically guessed at things and operated by rules of thumb.
Mechanical structures are designed to carry a load. Then there is duty cycle, how much load and for how many cycles. There are lots of one shot devices, things that only are supposed to work once. When they are used, their structure is so severely compromised that using them twice is unwise. Structures that are designed to last longer tend to be heavier and made of more expensive materials.
All firearms are designed to carry a load, at least the modern ones. Who knows what they did for design standards prior to the 1920's. Modern guns made out of modern materials are not expected to last forever. Even with standard loads there are design lifetimes. Guns will break at some round count. These things are generally not heavy enough to have an infinite duty cycle. You want to carry a 10 pound handgun?
You over stress the structure with loads that are above the design loads, don't expect your structure to last long.
This post, on another forum, it is worth looking at the fatigue curve, and the blown up Ruger pistol.
Fatique Life of 4140 steel
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150409-Ruger-om-44-convertible&highlight=convertible
Mechanical structures are designed to carry a load. Then there is duty cycle, how much load and for how many cycles. There are lots of one shot devices, things that only are supposed to work once. When they are used, their structure is so severely compromised that using them twice is unwise. Structures that are designed to last longer tend to be heavier and made of more expensive materials.
All firearms are designed to carry a load, at least the modern ones. Who knows what they did for design standards prior to the 1920's. Modern guns made out of modern materials are not expected to last forever. Even with standard loads there are design lifetimes. Guns will break at some round count. These things are generally not heavy enough to have an infinite duty cycle. You want to carry a 10 pound handgun?
You over stress the structure with loads that are above the design loads, don't expect your structure to last long.
This post, on another forum, it is worth looking at the fatigue curve, and the blown up Ruger pistol.
Fatique Life of 4140 steel
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150409-Ruger-om-44-convertible&highlight=convertible
That is my thinking, as well. Such things as .380ACP +P and 9 mm +P+ loads are "trust me" loads. I don't. I don't trust myself to load ammo beyond book values, and I'm not going to trust someone else to do it, either. We just don't know what pressures are being generated. A good result will be unnecessary wear; a bad result could be a ruined gun or a ruined hand. Why risk it?
I think the big companies know exactly what they are producing, and have standards.
Its the smaller, specialty companies Id steer clear of. Especially if they dont/wont post their data.
I normally carry Winchester Ranger T 127 grain +P+ 9mm's in my Glocks. Shoot about 1000 rounds a year out of a couple, and have seen no ill effects.
They have a spec sheet (http://winchesterle.com/Lists/CatalogAmmo/Attachments/13/RA9TA.pdf), and list it at 42,000 psi, which is in the same basic range Speer gave me (40,000 psi), so Id say the major makers do know/have a spec for +P+, and its not an unknown.
It seems there is a lot of concern about using 9MM NATO, +P and especially +P+ in 9MM pistols. I can only share my humble experience in use of these three types of 9MM ammo. While the +P+ is sold on contract to LE agencies, we know it is also available to anyone who shops around a bit. I have never tried to keep a count, but have used thousands of rounds of various manufacturers' NATO, +P, +P+ and equivalent reloads in quality firearms for a good many years. I have yet to experience a problem. Nothing has bent, broken, deformed or fallen off of any of the semi-auto pistols, revolvers or carbines in which this ammo was used. In reference to Glock in particular, information provided to LE customers indicates that use of NATO, +P, +P+, Black-tip carbine, in fact "any commercially manufactured ammunition may be fired in the Glock pistol". My HK USP owners manual indicated that "All USPs are approved for use with +P and +P+ ammunition". HK includes the sensible admonition that use of +P and +P+ ammunition will accelerate wear and reduce service life. I doubt I could afford to buy or load enough ammunition to reduce the service life of a Glock or USP pistol. I would not want to use +P+ in old surplus 9MM pistols or any guns of questionable manufacture or condition.....ymmv
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+P should put you on notice that you are shooting a hotter load than normal.
My opinion is that a semi auto pistol is designed for a particular range of power that will cycle the slide action appropriately. So there are limitations in departing from normal ammo.
One reason I like revolvers is that I believe there is more latitude for more powerful loads. You don't have to worry about the ballet of a slide action.
I have a box of Buffalo Bore "Heavy 45 Colt +P" that pushes a 260 gr. bullet at 1450 feet per second. The instructions on the box state: "ALL HEAVY .45 COLT +P AMMUNITION IS TO BE FIRED ONLY IN RUGER LARGE FRAME, COLT ANACONDA, AND FREEDOM ARMS REVOLVERS, T/C, WINCHESTER 94, AND MARLIN 94. NOT FOR USE IN THE SMALL FRAME RUGER VAQUERO.
So, they pretty much tell you what you are in for. I shoot this in my .454 Super Redhawk. I saves me from being beat up by the .454, but it is more exciting than .45 Long Colt.
Normal .45 Long Colt 230 gr. moves about 970 feet per second. So if I am moving up to 1450 ft/sec, then I know to expect more recoil in a revolver that is built to handle it.
I think it is pretty cool to have a wide range of power in one pistol.
My opinion is that a semi auto pistol is designed for a particular range of power that will cycle the slide action appropriately. So there are limitations in departing from normal ammo.
One reason I like revolvers is that I believe there is more latitude for more powerful loads. You don't have to worry about the ballet of a slide action.
I have a box of Buffalo Bore "Heavy 45 Colt +P" that pushes a 260 gr. bullet at 1450 feet per second. The instructions on the box state: "ALL HEAVY .45 COLT +P AMMUNITION IS TO BE FIRED ONLY IN RUGER LARGE FRAME, COLT ANACONDA, AND FREEDOM ARMS REVOLVERS, T/C, WINCHESTER 94, AND MARLIN 94. NOT FOR USE IN THE SMALL FRAME RUGER VAQUERO.
So, they pretty much tell you what you are in for. I shoot this in my .454 Super Redhawk. I saves me from being beat up by the .454, but it is more exciting than .45 Long Colt.
Normal .45 Long Colt 230 gr. moves about 970 feet per second. So if I am moving up to 1450 ft/sec, then I know to expect more recoil in a revolver that is built to handle it.
I think it is pretty cool to have a wide range of power in one pistol.