+P+ 9mm = Winchester ST .357 mag?

H

HighValleyRanch

New member
First off, I do not want this thread to degenerate into a caliber war.
Just a simple question:
I found that the Buffalo Bore +p+ ammo in 9mm is rated at 500 ft. lbs.
115 gr. at 1400 fps.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=26

I found that the winchester silvertip .357 is rated at 535 ft. lbs.
145gr. @ 1290 fps
(http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=74652)

So can one assume that these two loads are close in power?
I am sure that barrel length, gun type, bullet type, etc. will all be factors in penetration and expanstion and of course intended use.
But the muzzle energy looks pretty close on these.
And of course I realize that there are hotter .357 loads, but doesn't the +p+ put the 9mm on the low end of the .357 spectrum, given these stats?
 
Looks like it. But that isn't news; the higher end of the 9mm spectrum has always approached the lower end of the .357 magnum spectrum. Unless you are a *very* good shot, it's unlikely that the small differences in power between most 9 mm loads and most .357 magnum loads will make much difference in your ability to defend yourself with those respective guns. Shot placement and ability to deliver accurate follow-up shots will matter more.

For what it's worth, I regularly practice with Winchester Silvertips of the description that you provide. They have less muzzle flash and less kick than the Hornady DPX 125 gr. .357 magnum loads I also practice with and carry at times. In my S&W Model 60, they're quite manageable and I had no trouble delivering accurate follow-up shots with them when I first tried them, while the lighter and hotter Hornady DPX loads took considerably more practice to handle well.

However, my usual self-defense load is neither of these; it's Speer Gold Dot "short barrel" 135 gr. .38 +P loads that are less "powerful" than either. The Gold Dot is, however, more than powerful enough for any close-in self-defense shooting that I would need to do. It's also easier to manage my small .357 gun with them, and I shoot better with them at the range and during practice. "More power" isn't always better.
 
Yes, the very top end 9mm loadings can come pretty close to the energy of run-of-the-mill .357 Magnum loadings. However, energy in and of itself is a poor predictor of terminal performance. I would expect such a light bullet at such high velocity to have much shallower penetration than the heavier bullet at more moderate velocity.
 
No. Textbook theorem always looks good. Look at some of the numbers on fast varmint rifle cartridges. If they were equal, both would be legal for hunting in most states. The .357 is the minimum for stright walled handgun ammo in NC.

-7-
 
So can one assume that these two loads are close in power?
Click to expand...

They are close in speed but the difference in bullet weight also plays into overall "power" between the two rounds.

Webleymkv described the difference pretty well with

... energy in and of itself is a poor predictor of terminal performance. I would expect such a light bullet at such high velocity to have much shallower penetration than the heavier bullet at more moderate velocity.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that "energy" calculations put more importance on speed than it does on mass of the object.
 
Factory-quoted figures.. Double Tap and BB energy/velocity figures are questionable at best.

There's more to the stopping power equation than highest muzzle energy or highest velocity. If you load a .355 115gr JHP to 1400 FPS, you're overdriving the bullet's construction, and will likely fragment to pieces and underpenetrate.

Forget about muzzle energy, because that's not what incapacitates bad guys. Putting holes where they weren't intended to be, does..

Bullet construction dictates overall bullet performance. Repeat.
 
When I choose to carry a pocket pistol, I have every confidence in my Kahr PM9 with Winchester Ranger 127 +p+ rounds.

I would rather carry my S&W M-66, but here in TX, that is only practical about three months out of the year, when a jacket/sweatshirt/etc. is in order...but at that point, I generally carry a 1911 or an N-frame (in a caliber that starts with a .4) instead.

So yes, I think a good 9mm +p+ in a small, quality, reliable and accurate 9mm is a very viable option.
 
Factory-quoted figures.. Double Tap and BB energy/velocity figures are questionable at best.
Click to expand...

Oh no no no....

I have chroned BB 158gr LSWHP .38s from 2 inch M64 AND 2 3/4 Ruger Speed Six myself.

1000 fps from the 2 incher, and 1100 from the 2 3/4 incher.

And others like Stephen Camp has chronoed more from BB and they get what they say they get.

115 at 1400 sounds like an interesting load. But I use the 127gr +p+ Winchester from a Glock 26 and it does chrono out at 1240.

Not a .357 mangum but for that little gun that's mighty good.

Deaf
 
Heck guys, I have chroned BB 158gr LSWHP .38s from 2 inch S&W M 36 & M637 at almost 1000 fps and from a M60 357 Mag from a 3” barrel at about 1100 fps.
 
yes, they appear to have identical energy figures. There are other parts to the equation of wounding, for example bullet weight and sectional density (which control penetration at equal velocities) and bullet construction.

The .357 is probably a dead certainty to give maybe even as much as 6" of penetration beyond what a 115 grain low sd 9mm bullet will give.

The 9mm will give a far greater initial cavity, and it will expend more hydrostatic shock, causing more serious collateral damage to tissues, therefor, more internal bleeding.

It would depend on a lot of factors which round would be best for that particular shot.

ME is seriously, NOT the factor to look at. Your bullet construction and cartridge are more important than ME.

My choice would be the .357, except for carry, and then I would go with the 9mm.
 
I found that the Buffalo Bore +p+ ammo in 9mm is rated at 500 ft. lbs.
115 gr. at 1400 fps.


I found that the winchester silvertip .357 is rated at 535 ft. lbs.
145gr. @ 1290 fps

So can one assume that these two loads are close in power?
Click to expand...


You don’t have to assume anything, in terms of kinetic energy, only 35 ft lb separates the two. Now, if only that was all there is to it…
 
IIRC the test was done on a longer barrel. You won't get that power factor out of a 3".

If I load my 9mm a bit hot, I can easily get 357 velocities out of my HiPoint carbine.
 
I'd take any information posted on that stoppingpower.net website mentioned above as questionable at best.. Their best interest is in profiting from selling their three fictional "stopping power" books
 
Some chronograph data of Double Tap can be seen here:

http://stevespages.com/page8f357magnum.html

While it fell, on average, 115fps short of its advertised velocity, the Speer Gold Dot also fell, on average, 103fps short of its advertised velocity leading me to believe that it was the gun more than the ammo.

http://stevespages.com/page8f10mm.html

This 10mm load seemed to perform about as advertised.

http://stevespages.com/page8f10mm.html

Again, all of DT's 10mm ammo seemed to be within 100fps of advertised velocity.

http://www.gunblast.com/SW-610.htm

In this particular case, DT did fall pretty far short of its advertised velocities, Buffalo Bore, on the other hand, seemed to perform as advertised.

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LCP.htm

Buffalo Bore always seems to perform as advertised

Honestly, something I've noticed about the claims of QC issues with both DT and BB, particularly not making published velocities, seem to come from the 2007-2009 election-hysteria period. I suspect that due to much higher volume than either company was used to, a few more things probably slipped through the cracks.
 
It seems to me that many uninformed people are fixated on velocity and energy figures rather than bullet design and construction as their primary focus of terminal ballistics.

The two loads the OP mentioned [W-W 145gr STHP .357 Magnum revolver cartridge and Buffalo Bore 115gr JHP +P+ 9mm] share similar ballistic figures according to the factory posted numbers, but just about nothing else.

Like i mentioned in my first post, the 115gr .355 dia JHP will simply disintigrate into fragments and underpenetrate at those velocities, whereas the 145gr STHP will typically penetrate over 12" into calibrated ballistics gelatin and expand to .65 diameter. I bet that 115gr BB 9mm load wouldn't penetrate a scrawny coyote let alone a 6' tall man.

There's a lot more to the terminal ballistics equation than simply going by highest posted factory energy and velocity figures▬which by the way are cherry picked to begin with..
 
Like i mentioned in my first post, the 115gr .355 dia JHP will simply disintigrate into fragments and underpenetrate at those velocities
Click to expand...

It depends on the bullet. An older, more fragile JHP like a 115grn Winchester Silvertip or the Sierra JHP's that Cor-Bon uses would likely fragment at those velocities. However, a good bonded bullet like a Speer Gold Dot, an all copper bullet like a Barnes X-Bullet, or just a particularly tough non-bonded JHP like a Hornady XTP would be much more likely to be able to stand up to such velocities. I agree, however, that the .357 Magnum Silvertip would almost undoubtedly penetrate deeper as it has a lower energy-to-momentum ratio (535:26 or 20.58 as opposed to 500:23 or 21.74). Also, even if the 9mm does not fragment, it might still overexpand by wrapping it's petals back around the base of the bullet (Gold Dots are known to do this when driven too fast).
 
Rampant_Colt said:
I bet that 115gr BB 9mm load wouldn't penetrate a scrawny coyote let alone a 6' tall man.
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HighValleyRanch said:
Are you 6 feet tall?
Click to expand...
Am i? What's that got to do with anything? What if the bad guy is 6' tall or more?
Not mincing words, that BB 115gr +P+ 9mm load is a poor choice. By comparison, the .357 Mag W-W STHP cartridge is stellar.

..but then again, this an apples to oranges comparison
 
I think he was wondering if you would be willing to stand in front of some "harmless" 9mm rounds. :eek:

(I sure wouldn't and I'm well over 6'!)


For the OP, yes, a 9mm can be up loaded to weak 357mag levels.
But that doesn't mean that the "Best" 9mm is the same as the "Best" 357mag round.


My opinion -> the shine on the .357mag due to it being directly compared to .38spl SWC has created a mythos that lives to this day. Same as the sullied reputation the 9mm has from it's earlier days in lower power FMJ loadings. The 357 was never as good as it's rep and the 9mm was never as bad.
 
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