Overarching Second Amendment question...

Indrid Cold

New member
First off, hello to everyone! I'm new here and finding everyone very friendly and helpful, and it's a great experience all around.

I'm a college student and recently did a term paper on Gun Control and the issues surrounding it (constitutionality, NRA involvement in legislation, etc.) I mainly used The Politics of Gun Control by Robert Spitzer, as well as some supporting articles, although they were mainly just for historical information regarding the evolution of gun control laws.

The main point that I gathered from the book was that a vast majority of people involved in the gun control battle see it as an issue of Second Amendment rights. However, as evidenced by any Supreme Court case involving Second Amendment justification for citizen firearms ownership, that argument has never held. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment pertains to citizen ownership of firearms within a government-affiliated/regulated militia (I.E - National Guard), and not directly to individual citizen ownership. Regardless, very few people (at least that I've met) recognize this and address it.

I'm hoping to get a bit of clarity as to what the main argument is for gun rights on the constitutional side. If anyone is extremely well-informed on the legal/constitutional side, I'd love to hear your take on this. Any textual evidence/support is also greatly appreciated.

From my own interpretation, the battle for gun rights lies in an implicit right to citizen arms ownership through the Second Amendment, but not directly allowed by it. This would be very similar to the "right to privacy" which many people think is an explicitly defined right, but was actually said to be implicitly defined in the "prenumbra of the Constitution."

In the end, I just want to be able to argue even better against anyone who says that guns are stupid and we shouldn't be allowed to own them, blah blah blah. If anyone needs any quotes or citations from my books/sources, I'd be glad to give them. Just ask! Thanks for the help!
 
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Welcome to TFL. You asked for opinions and I dare say you will get a few.

Also, the search button is your friend; this is not an unknown topic on this board.
 
These are quotes I picked up from another thread... I think they amply show the mentality of the Founding Fathers when forming the documentation that is the foundation of the United States... :)
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950)

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms..."
-Senator Richard Henry Lee, 1788, First U.S. Senate.


"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..."
-Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Peirce & Hale, eds., Boston, 1850
.
I think it is noteworthy that at that time the Revolution was very fresh on their minds... It was a major influence on their thinking and it was common knowledge that the fact that Colonists had at least one gun in their households, and handguns on their person, the Revolution had any chance of STARTING much less any chance of SUCCEEDING...personal gun ownership is the first payment for freedom.

I don't think all the facts are here... If the SCOTUS had, in fact, ruled that the Second Ammendment did not apply to the people's right to keep and bear arms... I'm sure it would have made a louder noise... like "the shot heard 'round the world".

Can you name the ruling, and possibly reference it for us? Needless to say, I am very interested in this subject... I think perhaps you may be confusing a left-wing court ruling such as the 9th Circuit (San Francisco)...with the SCOTUS.

I sure hope so... :eek:

BTW welcome to TFL :)

Try reading John Lott's - More Guns, Less Crime
 
Welcome to The Firing Line, Indrid. :)

Indrid Cold said:
The Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment pertains to civilian ownership of firearms within a government-affiliated/regulated militia (I.E - National Guard), and not directly to individual civilian ownership.
I'd like to know the ruling on which this statement is based. The relation between the militia and the National Guard is erroneous because it does not take into account the unorganized militia. Oh - and the word "civilian" above should be "citizen".

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311 "Militia: composition and classes"

"(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are —

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

That part (2) right there means you and me. Citizens. Not civilians. We're part of the unorganized militia. The unorganized militia are the good folks responsible for making sure that Flight 93 crashed in a Pennsylvania field instead of into the White House. The unorganized militia are the people (like TFLer Xavier Breath) who helped to rescue people stranded in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. They are citizens like Emmett Helmly who stopped an armed robbery with his bare hands. They don't always carry guns, but the Second Amendment guarantees their right to do so.

-Dave

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People."
-- Tench Coxe, 1788.
 
Welcome Mr./Ms. Cold. First off, the ambiguous wording of the second amendment will forever preclude its use to provide legal justification for ownership of firearms. We will never get around the " well regulated militia " wording. There's no sense in beating that dead horse. We need to provide the data that demonstrates that our society benefits from firearm ownership. Treatises such as John Lott's "More Guns Less Crime" are excellent. It has been ctitically reviewed by university scholars, not one of which found fault. Every year more states pass CCW carry laws. Never has one found it necessary to repeal a CCW carry law. One of the original CCW states, Florida, is planning to expand theirs to honor other states permits. Why can we not trust the citizens of California to be as responsible as the those in Texas, Florida, Nevada? In another thread I read that Diane Feinstein, our embarassing representative, has A CCW permit! If that is true, why does that not get broadcast/published far and wide? CCW in California is only for the priviliged few, movie stars (Robert Blake, aka Beretta), cronies of our politicians, Police Chiefs, Sheriffs, etc.. Feinstein and Polosi keep getting elected so most of our ca. citizens must agree with them. When I mentioned at work that I had attended a gunshow over the weekend, a co-worker, a university educated engineer, asked "did I shoot anyone". I have no idea what has concentrated so many anti-military, anti-gun people in our state but it is really disheartening. It's an uphill battle but we have to keep on keeping on.
 
This is wonderful :) I need to finish studying for some finals, but I will be more than happy to type out some sections from my book later on! Sorry about not searching first - I thought I had a fairly novel (at least the phrasing) question. My mistake! Haha.
 
Alright, bear with me - this is going to be a real long post...

From The Politics of Gun Control: Third Edition by Robert J. Spitzer, 2004.

The Second Amendment has generated relatively little constitutional law. In four instances, however, the Supreme Court has ruled directly on this amendment.
In the first case, U.S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876), William Cruikshank and two other defendants were charged with thirty-two counts of depriving blacks of their constitutional rights, including two claiming that the defendants had deprived blacks of firearms possession, in violation of the Force Act of 1870. Speaking for the Court, Chief Justice Waite wrote:

The second and tenth courts are equally defective. The right there specified is that of “bearing arms for a lawful purpose.” This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second Amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this … means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government.​

The Court in this case established two principles that it (and most other courts) have consistently upheld: that the Second Amendment simply does not afford any individual a right to bear arms free from government control; and that the Second Amendment is not “incorporated,” meaning that it pertains only to federal power, not state power (this is what the Court meant when it referred to the Second Amendment not being “infringed by Congress”). Admittedly, the Supreme Court did not beging to incorporate parts of the first ten amendments (that is, use the wording of the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to extend parts of the Bill of Rights to the states) until 1897. But the Court has never accepted the idea of incorporating the entire Bill of Rights, and it has never incorporated the Second Amendment, despite numerous opportunities. In other words, the courts have continued to treat the Second Amendment differently from most of the rest of the Bill of Rights.
Ten years later, the Court ruled in Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886), that an Illinois law that barred paramilitary organizations from drilling or parading in cities or towns without a license from the governor was constitutional. Herman Presser challenged the law after he was arrested for marching and drilling his (armed) fringe group, Lehr und Wehr Verein, through Chicago streets. In upholding the Illinois law, the Court reaffirmed that the Second Amendment did not apply to the states (citing Cruikshank). Speaking for a unanimous Court, Justice Woods went on to discuss the relationship between the citizen, the militia, and the government:

It is undoubtedly true that all citizens capable of bearing arms constitute the reserved military force or reserved militia of the United States as well as of the States; and, in view of this prerogative…the States cannot, even laying the constitutional provision in question out of view, prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms, so as to deprive the United States of their rightful resource for maintaining the public security, and disable the people from performing their duty to the General Government. But, as already stated, we think it clear that the sections under consideration do not have this effect.​

The Court then went on to ask whether Presser and his associates had a right to organize with other as a self-proclaimed and armed military organization, against state law. No, the Court answered, since such activity “is not an attribute of national citizenship. Military organization and military drill and parade under arms are subjects especially under the control of the government of every country. They cannot be claimed as a right independent of law.” In other words, militias exist only as defined and regulated by the state or federal government, which in Illinois at the time was the 8,000-member Illinois National Guard (as the Court noted in its decision). To deny the government the power to define and regulate militias would, according to the Court, “be to deny the right of the State to suppress armed mobs bent on riot and rapine.” Thus, the Presser case confirmed the understanding that the right to bear arms came into play only in connection with the formation and conduct of the militia, as formed and regulated by the government. The Court emphatically rejected the idea that citizens could create their own militias, much less that the Second Amendment protected citizens’ rights to own weapons for their own purposes.
In 1894, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled in Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894), that a Texas law “prohibiting the carrying of dangerous weapons” did not violate the Second Amendment. Again, the Court said that the right to bear arms did not apply to the states. The Court ruled similarly in Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275 (1897).
The final Supreme Court case in this sequence, and the only one handed down after the Court began the process of incorporation, is U.S. v Miller, 307 U.S 174 (1939). The Miller case was founded on a challenge to the National Firearms Act of 1934, which regulated the interstate transport of various weapons. Jack Miller and Frank Layton were convicted under the 1934 act of transporting an unregistered 12-gauge sawed-off shotgun (having a barrel less than 18 inches long) across state lines. They challenged the act’s constitutionality by claiming that it was a violation of the Second Amendment and that it represented an improper use of the commerce power. The Court turned aside these claims and ruled that the federal taxing power could be used to regulate firearms and that firearm registration was constitutional. Beyond this, the Court was unequivocal in saying that the Second Amendment must be interpreted by its “obvious purpose” of assuring an effective militia as described in Article I, section 8, of the Constitution (to which the Court referred in its decision). Speaking for a unanimous court, Justice McReynolds wrote:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.​

This, the Court state that citizens could possess a constitutional right to bear arms only in connection with service in a government-organized and –regulated militia. In addition, it affirmed the constitutional right of Congress, as well as the states, to regulate firearms. Most of the rest of the decision is an extended discussion of the antecedents of the Second Amendment. Justice McReynolds cited various classic works, colonial practices, and early state laws and constitutions to demonstrate the importance of militias and citizen-armies to early America as the explanation for the presence and meaning of the Second Amendment.
Critics of this case have on occasion taken the wording quoted above to mean that the Court would protect under the Second Amendment the ownership of guns that do bear some connection with national defense. Such an interpretation is foolish on its face because, first, such reasoning would justify the private ownership of such militarily useful weapons as bazookas, howitzers, and even tactical nuclear weapons. Second, the Court decision states that possession of such weapons as sawed-off shotguns could only be allowed under existing law if that possession were connected with militia service. Because the two men charged under the 1934 law obviously did not have the gun for the purpose of, or while they were serving under, an organized militia, their prosecution and conviction were justified; the Second Amendment would only apply in the context of militia service. And as Presser clearly stated, citizens may not create their own militias independent of the government. Ironically, sawed-off shotguns can and do have some military value. Remembering that the Court’s point in this case arose from the challenged to the National Firearms Act (the source of the Court’s definition of a sawed-off shotgun), its remedy law in the failure of Miller and Layton to claim any credible connection to Second Amendment-based militia activities. The Second Amendment has received brief mention in two other Supreme Court cases, Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143 (1972; the comment on the Second Amendment was in a dissenting opinion) and Lewis v. U.S., 445 U.S. 95 (1980), when the court specifically cited the 1939 Miller case to uphold gun regulations as long as there was some “rational basis” for them. Both of these cases support the logic of the earlier four.



...Whew. So that's what I was reading (a few pages at least) of what the courts said and upheld, etc. Thoughts/comments? Is this book leaving out some pretty vital information? It seemed fairly complete and relatively impartial throughout the other sections, but I could be wrong. Thanks again for the information :)
 
Spitzer said:
In the first case, U.S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876)...
*snicker*

As I recall, general legal sentiment is that Cruikshank was a bad decision and should be explicitly overturned, though not on 2A grounds but instead because its view of incorporation is archaic.

I may disagree in principle with Presser v. IL, but not strongly, and not under the particular circumstances of that case. I don't see very much use in drilling in the streets, and it certainly could frighten sheeple. Militias that want to get members in shape can organize hiking trips. Militias that want to familiarize members with guns can do that on private property. Militias that want to instill mindless discipline should do that without creating a ruckus in public.

Miller v. Texas is a typical anti-incorporation decisions. He might just as well cite early 20th-century cases that fail to recognize 14th amendment incorporation of freedom of speech. "The courts have said that such and such right doesn't incorporate" is a very weak argument.

Robertson v. Baldwin doesn't really deal with the 2nd Amendment. There's a brief quip by the justices that the 2nd amendment doesn't guarantee the right to carry concealed weapons, which is hilarious because a fair number of states don't recognize the right to carry weapons openly, leading to the absurd result that carry of weapons is completely banned -- because concealed weapons are tools of the criminal (giving them the unfair advantage of surprise) and should be forbidden on that basis, and because openly-carried weapons are scary and a throw-back to the wild west. We clearly should not be relying on such precedents.

U.S. vs Miller:
That case has been rehashed so many times, in every conceivable venue.

First, U.S. v. Miller should be ignored because the defendant never presented his case. Neither the defendant nor his lawyer showed up, and there's speculation that Miller may have been dead at the time of the SCOTUS hearing. Standard modern legal precedent (a la Ken Lay) would set aside the conviction. I think it's beyond abusive to cite a case as precedent when the defense didn't even show up.

The SCOTUS made no attempt to resolve the major issue of the case themselves:
SCOTUS said:
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.
As has been pointed out in numerous discussions of this case, sawed-off shotguns (the weapon Miller was charged with possessing) had been used in military conflicts for trench warfare, among other things. Any modest investigation by the SCOTUS justices of that time would have resolved the issue.

Second, as noted by many other sources, including even in Cruikshank, the "militia" in general includes everyone capable of bearing arms. In 1939 that meant adult males; these days it ought to mean all adults. Trying to connect the 2nd Amendment's "militia" with the national guard or other government-run units shows an utter lack of semantic and historical awareness.

Third, a textual analysis of the 2nd amendment is fairly clear, for people who didn't fail high school English. The specified right to keep and bear arms does not depend on the use of those arms by a militia, much less an organized militia.

Fourth, "regulate" didn't mean in 1791 what it means today, so even those who insist on reading the 2nd Amendment as a governmental power grant to "regulate" the arms-bearing militia are wrong insofar as they think the power to "regulate" implies the power to ban or hand out permission slips for the possession of certain weapons.

Weapons have uses not related to the purpose of the militia. Tying the RKBA to the militia is silly. Personal self defense, target shooting and hunting are valid non-militia-related uses of guns.

http://www.guncite.com
http://www.saf.org/AllLawReviews.html
(those two links are in the RKBA Resources section of the TFL Library - see the top navbar on the current page)

If you want a book with a different perspective, try this:
http://www.amazon.com/Supreme-Court-Cases-David-Kopel/dp/1889632058
 
and that the Second Amendment is not “incorporated,” meaning that it pertains only to federal power, not state power (this is what the Court meant when it referred to the Second Amendment not being “infringed by Congress”).

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. It says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. As Tyme noted, it is a bad decision.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment pertains to citizen ownership of firearms within a government-affiliated/regulated militia (I.E - National Guard),

I grin whenever an anti makes that argument. Our forefathers were many things; patriots, visionaries, men ahead of their time, but they were certainly not clairvoyant. The National Guard was not established until well after they were all dead. Furthermore the meaning of militia has changed over the last two centuries. The context that should be used is the one of the time when the document was penned. That definition of militia is every able-bodied male between the ages of 17 and 45.

MISFIRE,
The ambiguity of the statement can be made an issue, but the quotes of our founding fathers are very black and white on the issue. Now, it has been years since I actualy took a hard look at the Federalist papers, but I think that they are they key to understanding what the framers of the Constitution had in mind.

Hamilton worte in #29, “This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.”

Madison wrote in Federalist Paper 46 that comon citizens should be armed to counter the military as they were seen as a serious threat to liberty.


Finaly, a recent DOJ Memorandum dated August 24, 2004, "The Second Amendment secures a right of individuals generally, not a right of States or a right restricted to persons serving in militias."
 
Sigh

The mere fact that you are asking and describe what you have heard on the issue is disheartening, because it's totally contrary to the truth. But that's what the average public members hears, so let's address it:

1. There is an ENORMOUS amount which has been written on the subject of the constitutionality of the 2A and the sub-issues involved in it. Not just on the net and in the media, but in many detailed, annotated, scholarly articles published in respected legal journals. So if you look around, you will find tons of info on this. You definitely need to look at the writings of Stephen P. Halbrook, the pre-eminent attorney and scholar on 2nd amendment cases & issues.

2. The clear WEIGHT of the conclusions reached by those scholars, on both sides of the issues ("liberals" included), is contrary to what you hear. The conclusions reached, after exruciatingly extensive and intensive analysis, is that:
a. The 2A clearly applies to the individual citizens, not the wholly bogus national guard thing, for many reasons. It is *definitely* the minority view that tries to bootstrap the nonsensical argument that only national guard members are what comprises the militia (organizations whose members pledge allegiance to the FEDERAL government, the very entity which the 2A is designed to stand as a check & balance against).
b. The 2A is (or should be) "incorporated" as against the states via the incorporation doctrine which flows from the due process and equal protection clauses of the 14th amendment, frm 1868. This is due to the right's status as *FUNDAMENTAL*.
c. Restrictions on the 2A passed by Congress or the states must be held to a standard of *strict scrutiny*, not rational basis or intermediate scrutiny, due to the right's status as FUNDAMENTAL.
d. Related to b. & c., all history indicates that the founding fathers and other contemporaries considered the right to be highly fundamental.

3. The ONLY reason we don't have the court cases going our way is because the SCOTUS has shirked and abdicated its duty to interpret the amendment, to its great shame, since the case of US v. Miller in 1939. During that time, it has granted cert to hundreds upon hundreds of cases dealing with the 1A and 4A, but clearly has shirked its duty to clarify the 2A, probably because they don't like the inescapable result of what addressing the issue will bring about (either striking thousands of anti-freedom laws nationwide, or a convoluted BS argument reaching the opposite conclusion which makes thier logic and scholarship look like that of 3 year olds).

4. The all important case of US v. Miller actually

SUPPORTS

a finding of an *individual* right, and supports fundamentalness, contrary to the way its been spun all these years, because of the strict result of what happened just because the joker litigants didn't bother to show up and brief it and make an argument after cert was granted. A detailed analysis of the Miller case I won't go into now.

5. What you hear to the contrary of all this is sheer demagoguery spun by anti-freedom politicians, media members, anti-freedom billionaires like George Soros, anti-freedom groups like HCI/Brady, and celebrities. Oh yeah, and the 9th circuit appeals court (which is known joke of a court reversed the vast majority of the time whenever the SCOTUS takes one of their cases - but yet the scotus won't grant cert in a 2A case). The "national guard" interpretation requires an incredible leap of convoluted logic to buy that conclusion, when you study it - particularly due the use of the word "people" in the 2A and the other contemporaneous amendments in the BOR.

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/right.html

Thanks for asking and seeking the truth. :)

P.S. On the 3 incorporation cases (Cruikshank, Presser, and Miller - the other Miller), they were decided in the transitional period when the incorporation doctrine was still being formed (1900 to 1930, give or take) - but once the incorporation doctrine was clearly entrenched as the law of the land, and clarified, by the 50s & 60s, if those 3 cases were re-visited and re-decided under the standards of fundamentalness set forth in the doctrine, they would clearly go the other way (on the application-to-states issue), due to the strong history of fundamentalness of the 2A. Thus they are irrelevant as bad law. They do support an individual right finding.

P.P.S. Curiously, the single BEST SCOTUS case, along with U.S. v. Miller, which supports the fact that the 2A is an individual right, is Dred Scott v. Sanford, which held that black folks were not citizens. Although of course it was later overturned expressly by the 13th and 14th amendments as to that principal holding, it's dictum as to the 2A is clearly persuasive. In reaching the conclusion that blacks were not citizens, the court explained the results that would flow if they were held to be citizens, which were described as expressly including the right to keep and bear arms. Since at that time, such a result would have been considered unthinkable, the lesson was that blacks couldn't be citizens since that result would accrue if they were.

One of the most influential early commentators on the U.S. Constitution was U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph P. Story. In his Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, vol. 3 at pp. 746-747 (1833), he has the following to say about the Second Amendment:

"§ 1889. The next amendment is "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

"§ 1890. The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time ofanding armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facilee means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. [FN1] And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How is it practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights. [FN2]

"§ 1891. A similar provision in favour of protestants (for to them it is confined) is to be found in the [English] bill of rights of of rights of 1688, it being declared, "that the subjects, which are protestants, may have arms for their defence suitable to their condition, and as allowed by law." [FN3] But under various pretences the effect of this provision has been greatly narrowed; and it is at present in England more nominal than real, as a defensive privilege."

Footnotes:

1 Tucker's Black. Comm. App.300; Rawle on Const. ch.10, p.125; 2 Lloyd's Debates, 219,220.

It would be well for Americans to reflect upon the passage in Tacitus, (Hist.IV ch.74): "Nam neque quies sine armis, neque arma sine stipendis, neque stipendia tributis, haberi queunt." Is there any escape from a large standing army, but in a well disciplined militia? There is much wholesome instruction on this subject in 1. Black.Comm. ch.13, p.408 to 417.

5 Cobbett's Parl. Hist. p.110; 1 Black.Comm. 143, 144.

(emphasis mine)

Bottom line, the right, as expressed in the 2A, is directly enforceable, and ought to be directly enforced, against any *infringement* of the right, by either the federal or state governments, and in this sense, "state" includes the District of Columbia.
 
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As Antipitas pointed out, the circumstances of Miller should cause it to be overturned (No Defendant or Attorney available).

Regardless, as FF points out, Miller was a win for Second Amendment Rights, in that it upheld that Right as an individual one. Where it went wrong, was an error of logic and fact.
- In Miller, SCOTUS argued that the Second only upholds the rights to own weapons commonly used by the Military. While I disagree with the notion, I'll take it gladly, if they'll simply enforce it!
- As others have said, in Miller, SCOTUS erroneously concluded that sawed off shotguns were not commonly used by the Military. In fact, they were in widespread use in both World Wars, later in VietNam and, today, in the SandBox. Had they known their history, the first conclusion would certainly have caused the case to be overturned. Miller was in full compliance, under the doctrine of "arms commonly used by the military".


Any conclusion that Miller was a blow to Second Amendment Rights is, IMHO, erroneous. Additionally, in my opinion, there can be no "scholarly" presentation of the meaning of the Second Amendment without reference to the 1982 REPORT of the SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES SENATE
Rich
 
Awesome responses guys - thanks for taking the time to type all of that out. I will definitely be taking a look at some of those books and reading what they have to say on the issue, as well as taking a look at the Supreme Court cases linked and referenced.

FirstFreedom - I'm sorry you think what I said is disheartening, but I'm just out here to better my knowledge of the pro-rights battle. I, personally, fully believe in the rights of the individual citizen to bear arms but I also like to have concrete evidence to back up my arguments. I didn't think that just because this one book laid out its argument that the Second Amendment didn't support the individual right that the battle was over and we had decisive ruling all of the sudden. However, he Spitzer probably wasn't making stuff up left and right. So, as you said, I'm just here looking for the truth, and it looks like I found it! :D

Thanks again guys.
 
Steven P. Halbrook is a name to remember.

AAAHHHHHH...A MOTHMAN STARTED THIS THREAD....RUN...RUN!!!!:eek: :eek:

Alright, enough goofing around.
The above quote is an excellent comprehensive source for an historical perspective on 2nd amendment dogma. The title is "That Everyman be Armed; The Evolution of a Constitutional Right".

If you are looking for more ammunition (no pun intended) for your term paper arguments regarding legitimate weapons ownership, you may want to expand your focus on the frequently ignored 9th amendment:"The Enumeration in the Constitution, of Certain Rights, Shall not be Construed to Deny or Disparage Others Retained by the People."

If an argument can be made by the antithesis that literal and historical interpretations of 2nd amendment ideology are incorrect, then maybe you can rebuttal with the above. However, good luck in finding SCOTUS reviews regarding the 9th amendment. Apparently, challenges have been very, very few in the last 200 yrs.




Curiosity yields evolution...satiety yields extinction.
 
The colonies defenses consisted of militias. Who were these militiamen? The citizens of the surrounding area. The only paid professional army belonged to the crown. The duty of the able bodied citizen was to have in his possession a firearm, and the components necessary to shoot it. The militia were unpaid volunteers from the local communities and areas. The militia was under the control of local leaders.

There was not much trust for a standing professional army from the writers of the constitution nor the citizens of the colonies. They had experienced being at the mercy of a professional standing army. So to say that the right to bear a arm only consists if you are a member of the national Guard flies in the face of history and actual events. The folks who wrote the constitution believed strongly in the right of self defense. self defense is the right of an individual. Plus if you look at the other amendments they deal with the rights of the people not a militia. In fact when early law enforcement began wearing uniforms folks were afraid because the military wore uniforms.

In my opinion the National Guard does not constitute a militia. Much of the support and monies used come from the federal government. Plus the President has the power to federalize the guard. Not to mention the fact that the national guard was formed after the Second Amendment was written.
 
articles of confederation is good for precedent to the constitution and bill of rights.

article 6

VI.
No State, without the consent of the United States in Congress assembled, shall send any embassy to, or receive any embassy from, or enter into any conference, agreement, alliance or treaty with any King, Prince or State; nor shall any person holding any office of profit or trust under the United States, or any of them, accept any present, emolument, office or title of any kind whatever from any King, Prince or foreign State; nor shall the United States in Congress assembled, or any of them, grant any title of nobility.
No two or more States shall enter into any treaty, confederation or alliance whatever between them, without the consent of the United States in Congress assembled, specifying accurately the purposes for which the same is to be entered into, and how long it shall continue.
No State shall lay any imposts or duties, which may interfere with any stipulations in treaties, entered into by the United States in Congress assembled, with any King, Prince or State, in pursuance of any treaties already proposed by Congress, to the courts of France and Spain.
No vessel of war shall be kept up in time of peace by any State, except such number only, as shall be deemed necessary by the United States in Congress assembled, for the defense of such State, or its trade; nor shall any body of forces be kept up by any State in time of peace, except such number only, as in the judgement of the United States in Congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defense of such State; but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage.

No State shall engage in any war without the consent of the United States in Congress assembled, unless such State be actually invaded by enemies, or shall have received certain advice of a resolution being formed by some nation of Indians to invade such State, and the danger is so imminent as not to admit of a delay till the United States in Congress assembled can be consulted; nor shall any State grant commissions to any ships or vessels of war, nor letters of marque or reprisal, except it be after a declaration of war by the United States in Congress assembled, and then only against the Kingdom or State and the subjects thereof, against which war has been so declared, and under such regulations as shall be established by the United States in Congress assembled, unless such State be infested by pirates, in which case vessels of war may be fitted out for that occasion, and kept so long as the danger shall continue, or until the United States in Congress assembled shall determine otherwise.

http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/arms.shtml
Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms
July 6, 1775
 
Indrid when you read Lott's, More Guns, less Crime
take note that he was not a gun enthusiast... he was a statistician who was curious about the subject and was, perhaps a little surprised by his own findings... :)
 
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TheFacts: You are the first person to get the namesake of this moniker, haha! Congrats to you. And thanks for the reference to the other sources - unfortunately, I turned my paper in a while back. Thanks anyway though :)

Pointer: I'll keep that in mind when I read that book. Is it something I can go run out to Barnes and Noble or Borders or something and just pick up, or would I have better luck trying to get it straight off of Amazon?
 
TheFacts: You are the first person to get the namesake of this moniker, haha!

"Great tragedy on the river Ohio"

What can I say, I have no life. :rolleyes:




Curiosity yields evolution...satiety yields extinction.
 
I am not even close to being cerebral enough to comprehend all of the legalistic points/issues surrounding the second amendment and the humongous number of related legal proceedings. Forums and discussions such as this one on TFL are excellent for dissemination of thoughts, opinions, ideas, etc..but they don't do one darn thing to influence the anti-gun editorial writers, movie stars, politicians, and misguided activists who get all the press and sway public opinion. I just wish that Polosi, Feinstein, et al, would be called to account for the deaths/egregious injuries that result from criminal assaults that could possibly/likely have been moderated or even prevented by a trained, responsible, armed citizen or even if the object of the assault had been armed. The lady attorney in SF shot in the face after a protracted car chase, the lady internist beaten to death with a baseball bat by a fellow internist, the junior league baseball player beaten to death with a baseball bat by a disgruntled opponent, the lady carjacked in broad daylight on a major street in Florissant Mo. and brutally killed, the horrendous school shootings, the list is endless. Why don't we hear about the incidents where death /serious injury are prevented by armed business/home owners often with just the display of a firearm? ( I am one of the latter) I don't know how to get the message to our politicians. I know they do not respond to e-mail or even to letters. Letters to the editor sometimes get published, but I guess the ballot box is the only real answer. Even the NRA is over matched in Ca. but I keep sending in my dues.
 
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