Out-of-uniform LEO's - question

S

sbryce

New member
Hi all,

We've just been informed that a daytime curfew ordinance was enacted by a city council with little fanfare. It's not my city, but close enough to make me very concerned. So now all LEO's, not just truant officers, are to approach anyone who looks under 17. The schools have issued special id to students (including *registered* homeschoolers) with a sticker on the back with the hours the student is supposed to be in school. I'm furious about the presumption of guilt until innocence is proven, but my question for you lies in another area.

In the course of discussing this, one gal mentioned that any pervert could rent an officer uniform, approach a child, 'need to take them to school,' and the child would never be seen again. Frightening. Then a friend pointed out that she saw a LEO responding to an accident call in a marked car wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Nothing about him said "officer." (My friend was on the scene first, offering the use of her cell phone.) Then I remembered seeing earlier this week a marked car obviously having recently pulled a car over to the curb. I believe I saw that the man in the driver's seat of the marked car was wearing a brown suit.

This is fodder for lots of conversation, but my question at the moment is: what are citizens supposed to do with LEO's (or folks claiming to be LEO's) who are not identifiable as such? I'm not talking about no-knock warrents at midnight, but more everyday encounters.

If I have someone claiming to be CPS worker at the door responding to a (spurious) anonymous tip along with someone claiming to be a cop, but not in uniform, and they 'need' to talk with my children, am I in big trouble if I grab my shotgun to defend my home?

And how do I instill in my children respect for LEO's when they may be stopped by one for no good reason? Now I'm nervous to visit that nearby city with the daytime curfew, even though I just got some 2 for 1 admissions to the Browning Firearms Museum!!

Thanks for your thoughts.

--Denise
 
I've never worn a uniform as a LEO. The most formal I've ever been was brown jeans and a white Western shirt.

If they're in a distinctively marked car, with the lightbar, then they should be okay.

Most departments have a distinctive ID card and some states issue a certain card to each commissioned officer. For instance, when I was working, I had a County SO ID card, and a TCLEOSE Commission card. Go down to your local office and ask to see examples of the cards.

If you are approached by a non-uniformed individual claiming to be an officer, most real officers won't mind you calling the PD/SO and asking for a uniformed unit to come by.

As far as grabbing the shotgun -- I'm a little wary about that one. Telling the plainclothed officer and the CPS worker from behind a locked door that you are calling the PD/SO for a marked unit to come by, and that you'll be happy to talk to the plainclothes and the CPS worker when a marked unit/uniformed officer gets to your house is probably a better solution.

On the same note, we had a critter show up in town and inform a family that he had a warrant and was seizing their car. Had a beautiful search warrant and a gorgeous LAPD sergeants uniform.

If he had done his homework a little better, he'd have shown up in a Stetson, blue jeans and a brushpopper shirt -- and maybe gotten away with it. :D

LawDog
 
Lawdog, as usual, hit the nail on the head.
If stopped by someone whom you suspect may not be an officer request that they have another unit respond.
If someone whom you suspect is not an officer attempts to pull you over while in your vehicle at the least drive (slowly) to a well lighted, populared area. In the best case scenario drive to the nearest police station. (If the person does stop you, roll your window down no more than necessary and inform them that you want another unit to respond or that you intend to drive to a police station and explain why.) Mind you neither of these work well if the person being stopped is three sheets to the wind. :D
People posing as police officers to commit criminal acts is not uncommon.

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
A few years ago a trustee from the county jail was taking a county sheriff's car to be serviced. He stopped a 16 year old girl at night using the emergency lights. She was found a few days later naked, raped and dead. Uniformed officers should be the only ones making a routine traffic stop unless it is a dire emergency. I feel the same way about unmarked police cars being used to catch speeders, etc. Anybody can purchase a blue light that sets on the dash or car roof and at night stop a car. Sure, this might not happen very often but if it is you or a family member who is abducted, once is more than enough. LEO's, don't take this as a flame, it is not intended in that manner.
 
Not too long ago, I say the police chief in our town giving a motorist a traffic ticket. They must have been doing something pretty nasty to get a ticket from him...

The chief was dressed in a business suit, driving his unmarked Crown Vic. But he called for a squad car to back him up, probably mostly to reassure the driver...

M1911
 
In my humble State only a uniformed officer in a marked car may stop a vehicle and issue a citation.

As for while you're at home. Lawdog was absolutely correct. I for one would be VERY angry indeed if during an "interview" at a persons home or anywhere else I was threatened with a firearm. I think I might consider that threatening a peace officer. A felony in my State.

Also, it is in bad taste to get involved in official business when you're not on duty. if at all possible officers in my department are instructed to call for a uniform unit, stand by and stay back BEFORE they attempt ANY action. it's both dangerous and confusing to responding uniform officers.
 
First, I have NEVER met an officer who got beligerent when asked to show his credentials. Yes, I want to see a badge (and what the badge says, thank you very much), but I also want to see his departmental I.D. (this is a pet peeve of mine-- WHY doesn't our DPS issue a standardized Peace Officer's I.D.??? It could even be consolidated to be the drivers license and CHL, if needed...)

The couple of times that I've felt the need to step in and stop a breach of the peace that was occuring before me while out of uniform, I had my ID case held out before me before I said a word.

I had a female college student ask me about stopping in a poorly lighted place-- she wanted to know about whether it was legally okay to continue until she got to a well-lighted place. I told her that, sure, if she had any doubts as to the authenticity of an officer, she should keep driving (slowly) until she got to a well-lighted area. But I warned her that, in my semi-rural little town at 2:AM, she'd be driving for 7 miles, by which time she'd be assured of the authenticity of the officer, because at least one other patrol vehicles would be also engaged in the stop. She got flustered, but I said "Hey, if an officer in a marked patrol car in uniform pulls you over and you still feel odd about it, tell him that you want to see his departmental I.D. He'll have all of that with him. If he doesn't, have him call someone."

Please note, however, that in some rural areas, that cop on patrol is the ONLY cop within 20 minutes or better.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The student who's out of school during school hours is enough to arouse reasonable suspision. I think that I'm comfortable with that. I'm also comfortable with minors not enjoying the full extents of the rights that adults. And indeed they do not.

What does peeve me off about the curfews is that an 18 year-old is thus just about required to carry I.D. to prove his innocence. I'm just too much of a civil libertarian to like a society where citizens must carry an I.D., except when acting in an official capacity or enjoying a priveledge (driving = priveledge. Travel = right).

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 27, 2000).]
 
Thanks so very much, for ya'll's responses. Especially LawDog for the alternative solution and your anecdote. I really like your stories. :)

I've always accorded the highest respect to the police. It gets much more tangled when now we have government agencies taking away our freedoms, and sometimes taking away our children.

I know a family in my state whose children were taken away, and in the 'secure' foster home, were exposed to tobacco, alcohol, given illegal drugs, then one was raped, and she did attempt suicide. When the Catholic parents spoke with the child who attempted suicide ("hey, honey, we're trying to get you out of this foster home, but we can't get you out of Hell"), the social worker at their elbow told them they could not discuss religious matters with their daughter. The parents eventually lost custody of all the children, in part due to their homeschooling and refusal to put one child on Ritalin.

So the situation becomes more complicated than in the old days (1800's?) when you could trust the government.

Thnaks again.

--Denise
 
"The student who's out of school during school hours is enough to arouse reasonable suspision."

But Long Path, there's always different schedules for the different schools in the area. Private schools are not required to conform to the public school schedules. In my district, the elementary schools run longer days 4 days of the week and get out early on Friday. The next district north in my metro area runs a more sensible same-time-every-day schedule. Also in my area, many public schools have year-round school, running 3 tracks. (For those unfamiliar with this, it's done mostly when there are too many students for the capacity of the buildings available.) Someone is always 'off-track.' So who's to know just where a child belongs, just seeing him out of a classroom?

I have let my eldest ride her bike down the block for business purposes while her age-peers were in school. She's quickly surveying the quantity of leaves on clients' lawns. A homeschooled child running her own business (yard raking) and planning her upcoming afternoon-- I'd call that educational. I'm the parent, I choose her schedule. I'm not required to conform to the public schools, either. Her presence in public during the hours that public school is in session should arouse no suspicions in our free country. It's a sad indicator of our freedom-depriving times that usually our family stays indoors during the public school's hours. Even the public school children get recess!

--Denise

There's two places we put people who don't want to be there: prisons and government schools. -- Bill Wright, Utah state legislator
 
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