OT: Thomas Sowell and School Teachers

Oatka

New member
". . . our children taught by the dregs of the college-educated population." Hoo-Boy! A bit much, methinks. School administrations are as much to blame, maybe moreso, IMHO.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts000616.shtml

June 16, 2000

A reply to teachers

Over the years, the shallowest and silliest letters that have arrived in the mail have usually come from school teachers. In order to lessen a needless burden on the post office, let me answer those letters -- past, present and future -- once and for all, so that both the senders and the recipient can save themselves a lot of time. What teachers object to most often is my pointing out that the people who teach in our public schools are drawn overwhelmingly from the bottom half of college students.

A recent book -- "The Conspiracy of Ignorance" by Martin Gross -- says the bottom third but, in any case, we are talking about having our children taught by the dregs of the college-educated population.

Outraged teachers seem to think that this is some sort of personal opinion or bias on my part, based on some inexplicable desire to "bash" teachers. Various kinds of psychobabble reasons have been suggested for such malign intentions. It never seems to occur to them that the reason I say it is because it is true.

For decades, innumerable empirical studies of test score results and academic standings have shown people who go into teaching to be at or near the bottom among people in a wide range of fields. If teachers are blissfully unaware of these studies, that is their problem. But it is an even bigger problem for the tens of millions of students they are supposed to be educating and for American society. Should we be more concerned about teachers' "self-esteem" or about the future of our nation?

Many of the problems of our schools derive from the kind of people who are teaching in them. Throughout the 20th century, there has been a tug of war between the public, who want their children taught intellectual skills, and "educators" who want to do fun things, manipulate children's emotions, indoctrinate them with political correctness or do other things that make the teachers' job easier and make them feel important in saving the world or shaping society.

The other great objection of teachers to any criticism is that the critics cannot possibly know what they are talking about because they have not been in the schools and classrooms. All the postage that has been wasted telling me this could have paid for a lot of chalk or other school supplies.

Dear ladies and gentlemen, I have been in schools -- more schools than I can possibly remember. These include schools from coast to coast -- black schools, white schools, public schools, private schools, rich schools, poor schools, successful schools, failing schools, all-boys schools, all-girls schools, coed schools, religious schools and secular schools. I have even visited schools of education and have seen first-hand the stupidity behind the miserable test scores and substandard academic performances.

What teachers are really saying is that they cannot understand how anyone can possibly disagree with their views. Such blind dogmatism is especially dangerous in people who are supposed to be teaching young people how to think.

When all else fails, the teachers' party line is: Why don't you say or do something positive, instead of just criticizing? One teacher said that, if I am so smart, why don't I tell her what to do in the classroom?

The most positive thing we can do for American education is to replace the kinds of teachers we have with better educated and more intelligent people. Private schools have no problem doing that because they are not tied up in red tape or in laws that enable teachers' unions and the schools and departments of education to keep out people who have not jumped through their hoops.

One of the biggest frauds in American education is the notion that people who have jumped through those hoops -- "certified" teachers -- can teach better than those who haven't. Studies show no correlation between education courses and teaching success. Many private schools don't require such courses and some don't even want to hire people who have been through such drivel.

As for the teacher who wanted me to tell her what to do in the classroom, that is not my job. My job is to try to help inform the public, so that they get teachers like her out of the classroom. Nor is more money either necessary or sufficient to attract better people. Private schools get better people while paying lower salaries than the public schools. So long as education courses drive away intelligent people, more money will just mean more expensive incompetents in the schools.

©2000 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
 
I like Sowell but he's missed the mark. College class average does not necessarily reflect a teacher's ability to convey skills to students.

IF a teacher's job is "to teach", then the effectiveness of a teacher should be judged by how much the students have learned. Therefore, evaluate the students at the end of each year to determine how much they have learned.

Impossible? No!

- "But then the teachers will 'teach the test'!" Fine. Make the test comprehensive to include all learning objectives.

- "But the teachers will fight over the brightest kids and the dumb ones will be ignored." Rate the teachers on the improvement made by the students over the test score from the previous year.

- "But the testing process would be too long, too difficult, too expensive, etc." The current system doesn't work. Have proctors (perhaps volunteer parents?) administer the tests to prevent coaching or cheating.

There's more but you can get the idea. Teachers should be evaluated by how much the students learn - not by how well the teacher "accomodates" the administration.

The above system works successfully in many industrialized countries where students score higher than American kids do on similar tests. It's time for a change. Let's change to something that works.
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Oh, yes I have been there. I taught kids in the barrio. About 70%-80% of the young men were on bail, parole, deferred adjudication, or "just out". About the same percentage of young women were single mothers (unwed, deserted, etc.).

My teaching methods angered the administrator. He gave my kids a 6-week test at the 4-week mark and they scored higher than most kids at 6 weeks.

"My kids!" They were the best! I loved that "job" - and they could tell.
 
I agree with Sowell to a certain extent with respect to the academic record of teachers. When I was in high school, there were several classes in which the teacher did not have a thorough grasp of the material. In trig class, another student and myself often ended up at the board solving homework problems that the teacher could not solve.

I also agree with Dennis' note on "before and after" testing. While standardized testing is generally a good concept, the students should be tested at the beginning and end of the school year to verify that the teacher is getting good results (and perhaps even mid-year to account for kids who transferred in). Of course there is the danger that the tests will be poorly designed, but something needs to be done.

One of the diseases in the American education system is that it has been taken over by "educators." Remember back when folks were proud to be a "teacher?" Now the schools systems are overrun with "educators" who think they know better than the teachers how to teach and what to teach. The abysmal elementary performance of the California school system was mostly due to the "educators" throwing away phonics for "whole language" learning and "new math" for the classic arithmetic and algebra.
 
Being a current public school teacher, I'd have to agree with Mr. Sowell. I've met a lot of stupid people in education. HOWEVER, we are at the start of a major teacher shortage. If we wants better teachers, we'd better be willing to do what it takes to attract them. How about better pay and working conditions?

If we aren't willing to do this, we'd better be satisfied with what we get...
 
Well, as the child of two teachers, the only sibling of another, the son-in-law of two, the brother-in-law of one, the nephew of two, and the cousin of three, I can only hope that I'm adopted :D

(I'm the only one of the bunch that is out in the real world trying to earn a living. The conversation around the family reunion dinner table is either real heated or real quiet. :) )


Forgot to mention that we also homeschool our kids, you should have heard the sputtering when we announced that. :D

[This message has been edited by Greg L (edited June 16, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gino:
Being a current public school teacher, I'd have to agree with Mr. Sowell. I've met a lot of stupid people in education. HOWEVER, we are at the start of a major teacher shortage. If we wants better teachers, we'd better be willing to do what it takes to attract them. How about better pay and working conditions?

If we aren't willing to do this, we'd better be satisfied with what we get...

[/quote]

Better working conditions: well, you chose to work with children ... ;)

Actually I can think of few better jobs, despite all the bureaucratic ca-ca you have to wade through. You get all the public holidays, including several that other employers generally ignore. You get two weeks off at Christmas. You get Easter off. You don't work at all during the summer months. You are home in the evenings (with a pile of papers to grade, if you're consciencious).

And for pay. You are paid for nine months a year of employment, not twelve. Somehow people always forget to mention that when they talk about the low wages teachers earn. Most of the rest of us work twelve months a year.

You get full benefits negotiated by your union. Sick leave, personal days, etc. Medical and dental.

Despite all this, we are still being told that our local teachers aren't being paid enough. Well, neither is anyone else; and the problems with our schools have had several generations of throwing increased spending at them with no measurable improvement in the end results.

Most private and parochial schools pay their teachers less money than the nearby public schools do. Most of them spend less money per student than the public schools, some of them considerably less. But the privately-schooled students still do better, somehow.

I dunno what it is, but it ain't money.


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"One of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." --Charles Austin Beard
 
Pax,

When's the last time you taught five classes of 50 students each? I taught junior high for two years before I gave up. Your argument is theoretical but with little basis in fact. I taught five hours a day and prepared seven. Thus I worked 12 hours a day and Saturdays I spent on lesson plans and working with kids. I only had Sundays free. The summers I spent taking classes and teaching summer school. So tell me, where was all my free time? Before you make schedules I advice you teach a year or two. Today I make twice as much money doing half as much work. Yes, it's about the money. If I could've made enough to buy a house and pay all my debts I would've stayed in teaching.

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So many pistols, so little money.

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited June 17, 2000).]
 
I watched a program on PBS once about the sad state of affairs in the GA (or maybe MS, can't recall) public school system. They are having such a shortage of teachers in one county, that classes such as Grammar and Algebra are being taught by Phys Ed teachers who don't even have a minor in those subjects, and don't know BEANS about the subjects they are teaching. On top of all that, they have so little $$ for textbooks, that the History books they use date from the 60's, when everything was still segregated! This school district is in a primarily poor, black part of town. Makes you wonder if segregation really HAS gone the way of the dinosaur?!!! :mad:

In light of all the crap that's going on in the Govt. school system, we elected to homeschool our kids. I am so thankful that we have the opportunity to do so!

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"Pray as if your life depends on God, Prepare as if it all depends on you..." -Texas Preacher
 
Pax, et al,

Please take one step back, you're standing on a nerve.

I finally left the teaching profession after 10 years because of the money. I am sick and tired of people who have never ever "taught the elephant?" telling us how easy we have it--short days, holidays, summers... What a bunch of BS. I never, ever had a summer "off" in my career, I worked odd jobs and taught summer school to make ends meet for my family. I was on campus at 6 am to prepare and often worked on committees until 6 pm (no extra pay). How many professions pay so little after 10 years and a masters? None!

As for test scores--I think our kids are already over tested. Scores aren't really declining that much, if at all. The difficulty of the test is raised every so many years when when it is found that more than half of the students score above average. The results of these tests are always valid for the students have little, if any, stake in the results. I was enlightened to this by a student recently. I saw her high school math placement score was much lower than I expected from her. When I asked what happened she told me than since she had already been accepted into an ultra-honors program, she didn't care about doing well, it was a waste of her time. Most kids are sick and tired of these tests because we spend too much time on them. The media, the public, the administration, they all demand high scores and force us to practice and drill these guys to death instead of doing real teaching and learning. No wonder many don't give a sheet when the real deal finally comes around.

Everybody expects high scores, yet ironically, on a norm referenced test such as the Stanford, ITBS, and many others, only HALF of the population can score above average, otherwise the test is invalid. That is why, in the last 20-30 years, the difficulty of the test has increased.

Yet I had to leave. In order to do what was best for my family I now work for a consulting firm that assists school districts in improve their test scores. NOT ONCE have we found teachers to be the reason for low scores. It is most often the result that what is taught is often not on the test and what is on the test is often not taught. Quit treating these tests as the only means of evaluating teachers performance. My two girls go to Montessori and they definitely don't "teach to the test." As a result, on standardized tests, their scores are average, even though that is not a true reflection of their abilities. I know better, and so do their teachers and their administrator.

I really miss my classroom and I know I made a difference because my former 8th graders come back and tell me so. And I didn't have it made in a posh situaiton either--over 95% free and reduced lunch and the spectre of gangs hanging over our population. But its about money when you have a family. When I was 22 and single it wasn't. My first job I went to Guam to teach and earned 4 to 5 thousand less than my fellow graduates, I went to gain a unique experience.

The bottom line? Start teachers out at a very high rate of pay and boot out the once who are incompetent (yes I have worked woth some of them.) A high rate of pay will attract those with the talent from going into the private sector. I cannot afford to be an educational missionary any more.

Sorry for the rambling rant but I'm tired and more than a little peeved.

For what it's worth, we learned so little about teaching in college, so who gives a flying truck about the grades? People who have the talents to teach well had it before they enrolled, survived the 4 or 5 years listening to many who hadn't been in a real classroom in a while, and then learned more in their first year in teaching than could ever be taught in a university.

[This message has been edited by HarryB (edited June 17, 2000).]
 
Senator Moynahan did a study on school spending, and found an inverse correlation between the $/pupil and test scores. Now if a dyed-red-in-the-wool lefty like Moynahan is against throwing money at the problem, then money isn't the only solution.

I would be happy to pay teachers more money, but by itself that isn't going to solve the problem. We need to overhaul the administration cult and get rid of the unions.

On standardized tests, one may note that ETS has re-normed the SAT to bring the median back up to 800 combined. I believe that the bottom 3 quartiles of high school students are less academically capable than 40 years ago, but the top quartile is better prepared. Repetitive drills are, IMHO, essential for many students. Yes, the smart ones get bored, but they will always be bored unless the school system implements a multi-track college prep curriculum (which would require many more rooms and teachers).

Darthmaum, part of the textbook problem is that many of them nowadays are just plain wrong. Most elementary school texts have glaring errors in science, for example. It is getting harder for school systems to find quality texts that are board-approved.



[This message has been edited by Ivanhoe (edited June 17, 2000).]
 
I read Dennis' post and had to laugh. I too have angered plenty of administrators in my time with iconoclastic teaching methods. A lot of the guards at our facility don't like to work in my classroom because it's too chaotic and they don't think the kids are "really working." Guess what subject our kids show the most improvement in when retested? English. Guess what subject kids usually show a two year jump in (and sometimes up to four years) in the one year retest period? English. Guess who teaches English?

Quack!

I have to agree with Sowell on the sorry state of *many* (not all) educators. I fell into teaching sideways. I was not an education major. My MFA is in creative writing. I took a teaching job in 1993 because it looked like a good way to pay the bills in grad school. I am still there. I love my kids and I love having a job where I feel like what I do every day matters in the long run. While in grad school, I took two education classes just for the heck of it. The difference in the caliber of students as compared to the English department was staggering...not to mention the high population of narrow-minded, Stepford-esque mommies who wouldn't even consider any teaching methods that weren't what they remembered from way back when.

I had some friends in LA who were working for Teach For America. This program brought grads from schools like Harvard, Brown, and William and Mary into underfunded inner-city schools to teach. We need more programs like this if we are going to end the dumbing down.

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*quack*
 
Ladies and gentlemen, before you judge Mr. Sowell spend a little more time reading his writings. He is black (but he prefers to identify himself as an Americian) he has a CCP (so he's one of us) and has written a multitude of articles on the subject of the schools. He has no problem paying more for the best we can give our children but he is a proponent of a strong background in the basics. He also has a tendency to back up what he says with objective evidence. It looks and sounds like we have several dedicated educators here and I don't want to step on their toes, I say thank you and if you quit, I'm sure the system of education has suffered. My wife has joined the system as a Speech Pathologist who had been in the home health field for years. She is one of the few who take work home and stay late. By in large (I have performed my own non-scientific poll/arrival and departure times of teachers, if they bring material in and out with them, and observations for the past few years with 3 children in the system most appeared to be afraid of parents who question what and how they teach) Most don't care. Teaching is just another job. I have to say most teach for the EOG test because it means more money for them. In NC there are no normal children left, they're either classified as "gifted" or "challanged" because the schools get more money if they are. My youngest is just now entering middle school and if I had it to do over again we would be home schooling. I go back to Ms. Phillips in the 1st grade in 1960. 30 kids and no aide. How did she ever survive! Gosh now ours complain if they have 23 kids and no aide. I say, find a way to reward the best we have not based on just test results, ask the kids and parents who are the best in the system WE KNOW! I have no problem forking out $100,000 a year for those. Let them become modles and trainers for the newbies and get the morons, who just think it's a job OUT! P.S. Did I ask you all to read more of Thomas's stuff, if not please do, wait till you see his take on the new Vocational initives and the occupational diploma! According to some of our "brighter" local administrators this diploma is as good as the real thing (even if you can't read)and yes teachers are the source athority of the essential functions of a job, and will make great HR directors in private industry. Oh well this one needs to be another post. Hey did I ask you to read more of Thomas's writings??????????????? Bless you all!
 
I've read hundreds of Sowell's articles and disremember a single one which missed the mark. He's very intelligent and obviously quite articulate.

I didn't know he had a pistol permit--good for him!!!
 
I've read as much of Mr. Sowell's work as I have been able to find, and ALL of it has been insightful and dead on target! I particularly like one short quote: " A common failure among honorable men is a failure to appreciate just how thoroughly dishonorable some other men can be, and how dangerous it can be to trust them "
crankshaft
nralife, goa, jpfo, fcsa, smvfm
 
After reading HarryB and others' posts, which very realistically pointed out that teaching is NOT the cash cow that some on the outside perceive it to be, I wanted to add my .02:

I teach in a private school, so I make even less than public school teachers. I totally empathize with Harry and anyone else who left because of the money. It would be a shame, and I would sure miss it, but the day will probably come when I will join Harry and the others. Bottom line: I can teach because I have no kids, drive a '92 Toyota, am buying a HUD house and basically have few expenses. I don't drink, don't like movies, and I hate to shop for clothes. I bought my only TV in '90 and my VCR in '91. My stereo was a college graduation gift, 1989. On a teacher's salary, I am making it. Barely.

I'm not complaining, because I do love my job. I am saying that it's not as cushy as a lot of people think.

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*quack*
 
Yup. Sowell's right. I have no doubt that the teachers contributing to this thread are bright, alert, and motivated. In my opinion, most aren't. When I was in college, I took a crip elective to pad my GPA. It was a science basics course, and it was filled with education majors. They were just plain dull. Trying to calculate areas and volumes of objects mystified them. It was almost like a scene out of "The Holy Grail" -- "What else floats?", followed by a cacaphony of incorrect guesses. In my opinion, these dim-bulbs were bright enough to realize they weren't going to be able to graduate in any other academic dicipline, and so followed the dictum 'Them that can't do, teach'. I believe they are quite aware of their intellectual limitations, and as a result probably developed some resentment toward the bright students in their care. This would account for the success unions have had in organizing them, and the sympathy many of them feel for the redistributionist economic policies of the Democrats. Interesting sidebar: The NEA and AFT together have about 400 to 450k members. That comes to maybe .02% of the population. However, approx. 20% of the delegates to the Democratic National Convention in 1996 were members of the NEA. Think school vouchers is going anywhere?

Here's my point, which is touched on by others. It's practically impossible for anyone to raise a family on a single elementary school teaching income. When we were kids, teachers were either nuns (in my case) or the wives in two-income families. In either case, they taught as a vocation, not as a profession. It's a subtle but important distinction. As I was taught the definition, a vocation is a calling from God to perform a service and is performed out of love or duty. A profession is a career that can, and ususally does, provide a reasonable income. As long as we rely on individuals to teach our kids who themselves rely on that teaching income to support themselves, we're going to get the dregs.
 
Note: This is from my wife!

(I understand my husband has a reputation to protect!)

I was pretty impressed with the number of posts in support of competent teachers. One thing, though, I think has not been touched on has to do with the fact that we are discussing the public education _SYSTEM_.

To me (a third year elementary school teacher), the word "system" implies a multitude of groups working together to insure that students get the best education possible. While I do not have as much experience as some of you have (or do not have ;)), I have yet to see the "system" work.

I have seen administrators undermine teachers, teachers belittle students, parents berate teachers, students lie to parents, etc. In short, public education cannot work until ALL the pieces of the puzzle are in place.

I am not so Mary Poppins that I think this will ever happen, but people who bash "educators" alone need to take a look at the big picture.

Administrators could better support their teachers if they weren't in constant fear that the state was going to shut them down. Teachers could be politically incorrect if they didn't have to fear for their job every time they told the truth. Parents would benefit by finding a happy medium - both complement and criticize when necessary, but only after taking the time to be well informed.

There are thousands of other comments I could make about all I have read on this thread, but this teacher who is enjoying her "whole summer of vacation" has to get up early tomorrow morning. Where am I going? To teach summer school, of course. How else are we going to be able to afford to eat this month? :p
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pax:
I dunno what it is, but it ain't money.
[/quote]

It's personal responsibility on the part of the kids, parents, teachers, and administrators. If all families had to write checks to pay for their kids education, then there would be more accountability. Parents would damn well be interested in how their kids are doing.
Do away with public education, and for those that can't afford it, there is charity. Those that care will find a way. We all pay tons in property taxes to support these crappy schools. Not a popular opinion, I know. This and that damned social security program are pet peeves of mine.
 
This one is from me.
If you want to use the private vs public school arguement, you have to dismiss the teacher theory because private schools usually want a teacher who is certified the same way a public school teacher is. Private schools usually have the same number of less brilliant teachers and students too. I have seen a lot of dim bulbs in the education profession, but there's dim bulbs in every field.
The real difference between public and private are the parents and the "overhead". Private schools don't tend to have so many chiefs and so few indians. Private schools cost extra money so any parent who wishes to send their kids to private schools or the ultimate sacrifice: homeschool, probably has a high level of involvement in the education of their children. Those kids, even the more dull ones would do great because of the involvement of the parents. The teachers at private schools don't have to suck up to school board members, parents, or administrators. They only have to teach. Homeschoolers only answer to God and their child.
Public education started failing when the Federal Government started getting involved. In the 1950's, our society was worried about the lower math and science scores of American Students vs Russian students. This was about the time it appeared that the Russians were whipping us in the space race with Sputnik and Sputnik II. In order to bring those scores up to par, the Federal Government got involved, and things have gone downhill ever since.
Most people in the teaching profession don't even know the purpose behind the public education system. Take this one question quiz to see if you know:

The taxpayer supported, universal education system in the United States primary reason for being is to:
A. help kids become productive members of society.
B. Bring up the national averages to beat Japan.
C. Provide an educated electorate to preserve the Republic.

If you answered C, congratulations. Our school's purpose isn't so Jr. can make a bundle of money, nor is it so that he can become a machinist, banker, or physician. The ONLY reason your taxes are supposed to be paying for a free education for the next door neighbor's kids is so that they aren't as gullible at the polls as there parents are. It is a measure to preserve our Republic. That Jr. gets a good job because of his education is a nice by-product, but not the ultimate reason for it.
I like the idea of paying teachers a higher salary, and firing those who suck. From my own personal experiences, at least 50% of the current school teachers should be banned from the classroom. That they had a powerful degree from a great institution does not matter if they cannot disiminate information. I had coaches who taught classes that were outstanding, and I've had teachers with Ph.D's that couldn't make you understand the subject that they themselves were supposed to have mastered. Just because they did poorly in college doesn't mean they can't dissiminate information nor does it mean that they are bad teaching prospects. Most History teachers will still proclaim that the civil war was fought over slavery. What a pathetic lot!
If you want to see public education improve, start by packing the school board meetings. You might be mightily impressed at the ammounts of money wasted by boards every day. Make all of your conferences with the teacher. Ask appropriate questions, and be INVOLVED with the education of your child. It isn't ultimately the school who bears the responsibility of educating your kid, but it is the PARENT'S SOLE RESPONSIBILITY. You the parent must insure that your child gets an education not his teacher. His teacher doesn't have to live with the consequences of a stupid child after the term is up.

I don't mind the teacher bashing because a lot of it is deserved. What I do mind is the failure to bash the current trend in America to delegate your responsibility to a "professional". Most of you on this board don't delegate your obligation to protect your family to the police, so why do you delegate the one fundamental priority in your life (your kids) to an educator? I also hate the constant comparisons to Japan, or Europe or other systems. Europe has a population of slaves and serfs. Japan is filled with some of the most homogenous and dull people on the globe. Just because they do a subject well doesn't mean that their system is better. As I think back, Japan and Europe could have been spared a lot of death and distruction over the past century had they only taught their kids to think for themselves. Somthing Americans USED to do quite well. This is what we need to fix in a HUGE way, or we too will be just like Japan and European countries. Dull, and in perpetual servitude to some jackass.
 
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