OT: Supermarket developer must also build low-cost housing

Oatka

New member
Kalifornia, as usual, leads the way. It's didn't take them long to do a modified extortion a la S&W. If other companies don't stay away, they deserve to be hosed.
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/17safeway_a1empirea.html

Safeway plan must include housing

First time city makes requirement of commercial project
May. 17, 2000

By MIKE McCOY
Press Democrat Staff Writer

For the first time, Santa Rosa city leaders are demanding a developer include housing as part of a commercial project.

The City Council on Tuesday rejected Safeway's request for a 60-day continuance and instead told the grocery giant that if it wants to build a new shopping center on the site of the former Yardbirds and its adjacent current store on Mendocino Avenue, housing will have to be part of it.

"I believe it's the first time we have ever required housing," Community Development Director Wayne Goldberg said after the decision.

The 5-1 vote, which backed a similar demand by the Planning Commission in March, is part of an increasing call for so-called "mixed-use" developments throughout Sonoma County that combine housing as part of commercial projects.

The idea is to generate much-needed affordable housing above storefronts while providing housing close to jobs and services to reduce the use of cars.

The City Council's action clearly displeased Safeway representatives who had requested the continuance, during which they said they would analyze whether building housing on the commercial site would make economic sense.

Safeway had been working on a plan to raze the entire 8.1-acre site for more than a year and replace its 32,000-square-foot, 50-year-old Safeway with a 55,000-square-foot store that would be built on the old Yardbirds' site. Safeway also proposed building another 40,000 square feet of retail space on the balance of the property.

But more importantly, Safeway had secured the support of its residential neighbors after company officials agreed to several concessions to make it palatable to them.

Several of those neighbors joined Safeway in its criticism of city officials Tuesday, particularly targeting planning commissioners who in October declined to require Safeway to include housing as part of the project during its initial review of the company's plans.

Instead, the commission made its demand in March after neighborhood residents had signed on to Safeway's proposal.


"Safeway is not my best friend, but they busted their butts to appease our neighborhood," said Mervyn Avenue resident Steve Peter. "You're changing your mind at the eleventh hour. That's not fair to Safeway and that's not fair to us."

Several commissioners and council members, however, said they told Safeway early in the process that some housing would be expected, warnings they said company officials ignored.

Ann Zimmer, who also lives within a few blocks of Safeway's project, supported the city's effort.

"Santa Rosa needs more housing, more affordable housing and this is an opportunity," she said.

Citing Forbes magazine, which just recently named Santa Rosa as the third best city in the nation to do business, Zimmer said the city's last-minute demand on Safeway "is not going to stop other companies from coming in."

While council members and some audience members spoke mostly of seeing affordable housing being built on the Safeway site, Mayor Janet Condron said even though that's the goal of such mixed-use projects, it is not guaranteed. It will be up to Safeway -- if it proceeds -- what type of housing it is willing to build, she said.

Council member Sharon Wright supported the 60-day continuance and was the lone vote against the housing requirement. Council member Mike Runyan abstained because he owns stock in Safeway.
 
If everyone who didn't believe in Santa Claus were to move out of that place it would collapse under its own unsustainable, cancerous weight.

Of all the nerve!

Miserable bastards, someone ought to tie them to a tree and cover them with honey.

:mad:
 
More extortion and wealth transfer.

they call this socialism folks.

Thank you miss Zimmer, and Mr. Goldberg. Keep up the good work! I hope they are all going to live next door to you. Instead of the exclusive neighborhoods that you probably live in.

!@#$%

MH.
 
My signature

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Civics geniuses, here's the deal:

As you may know, Californians passed two initiative measures, one in 1970 called Proposition 13 and one in 1996 called Proposition 218. Those two measures amended the California constitution to prohibit raising taxes, fees or assessments without a vote of the people. People virtually never vote to raise their own taxes, even in California.

Meanwhile, immigration to California, legal and illegal, has gone on unchecked. The demand for housing, and local government services, has skyrocketed. Why isn't affordable housing being built? Because the land in our cities is too expensive.

Because of limitations on local government ability to raise revenues, new local housing no longer comes with a guarantee that the tax rate will be sufficient to provide basic government services. Local governments are being called on to provide more and more services to more and more people every year, with no way to guarantee that revenues will be sufficient to do so.

Why should Safeway have to provide housing? Because they are adding a whole bunch of low-income jobs which will be filled by people who will need an affordable place to live, and there aren't any. You can either have overcrowded neighborhoods, with 25 people living in a 4 bedroom house, or you can have Safeway provide housing proportionate to the number of jobs they are adding to the "jobs-housing balance" in Santa Clara. By the way, if you read the article, you know that Safeway will receive whatever price the market will bear for the required housing.

If Safeway doesn't want to, they can go open a store somewhere else. They won't, because the density "problem" works to their advantage by making their urban stores so profitable.

Urban planning is NOT socialism. Maybe you'd like your next door neighbor to put in a hog farm? (No offense to any hog farmers.)

[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited May 17, 2000).]
 
When the government "requires" something, as Community Development Director Wayne Goldberg did housing of Safeway, that certainly isn't voluntary compliance, Ledbetter, that's coercion.
 
Never said it was "voluntary." Justified, yes, and they will receive compensation. It would be unjustified in the absence of the circumstances I described. And it's not compulsory. They can go do business somewhere else, but they won't because of the profits to be made off the concentration of people in Santa Clara.
 
Ledbetter,

That's right, Safeway can move out of Santa Rosa, which I wish it would for its own sake.
Doesn't alter the fact that the price of doing business just went up. Didn't see anything that indicated that the city would compensate the company, though.
 
Being a civic low achiever I removed my comments.
Something about:
You load 16 tons,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

keeps going through my mind here.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited May 18, 2000).]
 
Is the Santa Rosa city government providing housing in any of its own buildings? (Imagine city council meetings being interrupted by a domestic squabble in the apartment upstairs. :D)
 
A grocery store? Required to build houses?

Bovine exhaust! "Civics geniuses", indeed.

Low-cost housing is not Constitutionally guaranteed.
If it's such a good deal, private investors would leap at the chance to make a profit.
The LACK of investors proves it is not a good deal, ie Safeway is forced to take a loss.
Who pays for the loss?
Everyone who buys groceries.

It is a government scam to buy votes from the poor at the expense of Safeway who, in turn, is less able to compete (on price) with other grocery stores.

It is a tax or a fine on a business, to support a self-serving government program to buy votes.

Scam! The government says, "Look what we've done FOR you! Low-cost housing! Vote for us!"

Then, when the people complain about higher food prices because Safeway's expenses are greater the same government will say, "OH, NO! Safeway charges more than their competitors? We, the government, must control their prices FOR you! Look what we've done FOR you! Lower food prices! Vote for us!"

("Civics geniuses", indeed! Harumph!)

Civics geniuses remember the concept of "free enterprise"! Or has that also gone the way of the Second Amendment.

Forest Grump

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 18, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ledbetter:
Never said it was "voluntary." Justified, yes, and they will receive compensation. [/quote]

Will the government be "justified" in firearms confiscation?

Will the government be "justified" in what moral path it teaches our children?

Will the government be "justified" in issuing Executive Orders "for good the children?"

Will the government be "justified" in requiring finger-printing and DNA sampling at birth for all people?

"Justification" is how we rationalize an infringement on the rights of others.

"Justification" gives special laws such as "Affirmative Action (a euphamisn for preferential treatment)."

"Justification" gave us slavery, dictatorships, wars, torture, genocide, unjust taxation ad infintum.

When we hear the word "justification" used in any sentence together with words like: "not voluntary,but...," "for-the-good-of-the-children...," and "My ancestors...," we should hasten to that battlefront as if we were "hurrying to the sound of the guns" for there lies our next skirmish in our war for freedom.

-William
 
Ledbetter is correct in that what the city counsel requires is appropriate. California regulatory agencies (city counsels, planning commissions, etc) that have decision making responsibility over private and government development projects are required by California law to mitigate impacts to the environment to the maximum extent feasible. No choice. Impacts to traffic and socioeconomics (housing) hold the same weight as impacts to air, water and other resources.

If the shopping center creates a significant demand on local housing and infrastructure, that impact must be mitigated. Granted, building homes is not the only option as the developer could provide in lieu fees to subsidize other housing development projects. The appropriate mitigation is ultimately up to the decision-makers, and of course public input, including the developer.

I work for the Planning Department of Santa Barbara County and deal with this issue on a daily basis. My primary focus is oil and gas development. Some of those projects create enormous impacts that cannot be mitigated through normal channels. Instead, we require the developers to participate in a Coastal Resource Enhancement Program where money and land is donated to the County to provide beneficial uses for the residents to offset development impacts.

If the developer finds the terms of approval unacceptable, they can appeal the decision to a higher authority. Failing that track, there are always the courts.

Regards,

Noban
 
Sorry, I don't buy the "impact to the neighborhood" to that extent, nor do I buy the "there are always the courts" statement.
Why should Safeway get into that financial quicksand? Better to say "See Ya!" and depart, leaving the sagacious City Planners to figure out another way to feed their citizens. I hope Safeway does just that.

The sub-heading says "FIRST TIME (my emphasis) city makes requirement of commercial project.

Make 'em put in a large-enough parking lot? Yes, but that's it. Next they will have to put in a park for the kids the housing is bound to have, a playground, etc. Where do you draw the line? These developers shouldn't have a free hand but they shouldn't be used to try and solve the ills
of society either. Next they'll be expected to take care of the residents' medical problems also.

The supermarket adds to the tax base, and if it's an anchor store, will generate even more from the smaller satellite shops. More people to tax, along with their autos, etc. etc. It works both ways.

Couldn't you use that analogy for an office building or any other project that brings wealth to the city? City Planning can become extortion in a heartbeat, depending upon your politics.

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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
RAE and others,

I didn't mean anything bad by the remark about Civics Geniuses. I was just trying to begin an entertaining and provocative(!) response for the thread. In reading the post again I can see why it would cause offense and I apologize, sincerely. I love this board and its members because you can have fun here, even if you disagree. I don't mind being harumphed at.

I stand my philosophical ground, though. By the way, some of the responses in this thread are so emotional they might have been written by . . . . Well, why fan the fire. Anyway, let's get rational.

Munroe Williams: "While council members and some audience members spoke mostly of seeing affordable housing being built on the Safeway site, Mayor Janet Condron said even though that's the goal of such mixed-use projects, it is not guaranteed. It will be up to Safeway -- if it proceeds -- what type of
housing it is willing to build, she said." They can build, and charge for, any kind of housing they care to build. It's not compensation from the city, it's from the residents.

Oatka: The problem is that the development does NOT bring enough wealth into the city to pay for the services it will end up requiring, because the tax rates are fixed in California.

Believing in Santa: Up to the individual.

Justification: Yes, laws are always enacted based on a "justification." Speed limits, drug laws, abortion laws, farmer subsidies, veterans' benefits, social security, the whole penal code, etc. Let's get back to ranting about the substance of the situation:

A. Community already overcrowded, especially with low-income residents.

B. Supermarket wants to bring even more low-paying jobs to area, further upsetting already imbalanced ratio of available jobs to available housing. Supermarket is motivated because civic density is proportional to amount of profit.

C. Supermarket is therefore required to contribute to city's housing stock _if it wants to do business there._ Otherwise, Supermarket can open new store in less profitable, lower population area.

This is not socialism. This is making Safeway internalize the costs of its doing business rather than externalize them to the city and its residents. The alternative is for the city to accept development that it knows will make existing problems worse.

Are we still having fun?

Ledbetter


[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited May 18, 2000).]
 
I guess not. O.K., I'm going back over to Handguns and Pistolcraft and see if anyone wants to talk about local government over there. ;)
 
Ledbetter,

Okay, okay. I'll turn the "Harumph" down. I thought you were *really* being sarcastic! My bad! OK?

Oh, and I'm harumphed at long, loud, hard, and frequently (sigh).

Are we having fun? You betcha. Gimme a break on the time though. I just got back to the computer. ;)

If I were Safeway (with not a single additional bit of additional analysis to back this up) I'd simply not improve my store.

I'd pay off all debts, lower my expenses, and milk cow the store until it collapsed or the Dept of Health closed it. Then I'd sell it to the highest bidder and move to more favorable (economic) surroundings.
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Noban,
"... impact must be mitigated. ... building homes ... in lieu fees ... appropriate mitigation ... decision-makers ...."

Wow! So you guys charge businesses money to open a business - not just licenses but (in effect) fines and penalties.

[gleeful opposition]
Huh! I'll be darned. So then Safeway must recover those punishments, er, environmental/sociological impact recovery fees by charging more for the groceries they sell to the poor people who live in subsidized housing and have to get food stamps to pay for the food.

Sorry. It's all too dizzyingly complicated for me. Creating huge bureaucracies, at great expense to those who earn a living, to re-distribute their earnings to the people who are NOT earning a living sounds terribly inefficient and unrewarding.

And people live there voluntarily? (pause) I'll be darned.
[/gleeful opposition]

Seriously, it seems the taxpayers are paying a LOT of hidden taxes there. Fine a company and the consumer pays the bill. Unfortunately most citizens forget that as the government misleads them into thinking it's a free lunch.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 18, 2000).]
 
Nah, clearly my bad.

They not only live there voluntarily (not me, I had the bad luck to be born in California), but they've probably re-elected those councilmembers a time or two. Their policies may actually reflect the wishes of the majority of the voters there, who probably don't want any more density.

Let me ask you this, who is the greater bureaucratic tyrant, the local city government of Santa Rosa or Safeway? Food for thought (groan).

I guess we get along better when we talk about guns. :D

[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited May 18, 2000).]
 
OT
Ledbetter,

You know, I really liked California while I was stationed at Monterey. On the road every moment possible: Carmel, Big Sur, Los Padres National Forest, Los Angeles (where I choked on smog), San Bernadino National Forest (where I panned gold), Yosemite (camped for a week), San Francisco, Mill Valley and Sausalito, fields of artichokes near Salinas, redwood forests and a host of places where I still don't even know where we were. ("We" - I had a, um, a native guide. ;) )

We traveled everywhere by motorcycle. At dusk, we'd stop at a house where people were working and ask to work in trade for a spot to sleep in their yard. (Her smile & my G.I. ID card usually did the trick. :) ) We seldom worked much and usually got fed! Super people!

"Wine tasteries" everywhere (heh, heh). It was a trip....

What in the name of all that is holy happened to the California government? How did the people of CA come to such a controlled environment? Population density?

There are many places in CA as "rural" as we have in TX. What happened in CA? How can we keep it from going national?

If you (or anyone) has an explanation how the independent spirit of the '49ers somehow was replaced by government control of the individual, it would make a good thread in the Legal/Political forum. ;)
 
Although I agree on what "the deal" is Ledbetter I don't like it. As a general contractor I have seen it all here in California. Unwed mothers fee, very low income housing fee, school fees, fees for traffic signals, sound walls, enviornmental fees, grease somones palm fee.... on and on. We had a firm in Ventura County start off with a $900,000 addition that the County and City added certain mitagating fees that added another $400,000 to the project. He told them to go to hell and we built him a $3.5 million facility in South Dakota. Slowly California is being strangled by this type of blackmail and business is taking it elsewhere. Only Hitech stuff and the support systems for same are what is keeping us on top, and that is going to places like Austin Texas, Portland & Seattle and Richmond Virginia. Soon it will be out of the Country. MWT
 
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