Optics for .308 semi-automatic?

M

Micahweeks

New member
A buddy of mine and I have been spending some time shooting the FNAR in .308. He's interested in good optics to start long range shooting. Three to five hundred yards. I'm an iron sights kind of guy and don't really know what specifically the rifle needs. We've been using a cheap Eotech, first gen (I think), to run drills with and threw a 3x hunting scope I've had for years on it. What would you guys say is the direction an aspiring precision shooter should go on this gun?
 
Top end? ACOG with 7.62 calibrated reticle.
Low end? Any 6x42 fixed power scope from Leupold, Burris, IOR, etc.
Really low end? Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x40 mildot with side focus.

Jimro
 
I don't think an ACOG has enough magnification for 500yds... But that's me. I'd probably look for a straight 10x like the SWFA mentioned. There's a decent little scope made by Bushnell called the 3200 Elite IIRC. It comes in 10x and can be found for under $200. Personally, I'd save a little more and try to find a Tactical Leupold in 10x. You can pick them up for around $700-$800 used. Watch out for fakes!
 
I don't think an ACOG has enough magnification for 500yds... But that's me. I'd probably look for a straight 10x like the SWFA mentioned. There's a decent little scope made by Bushnell called the 3200 Elite IIRC. It comes in 10x and can be found for under $200. Personally, I'd save a little more and try to find a Tactical Leupold in 10x. You can pick them up for around $700-$800 used. Watch out for fakes!
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I've owned the Bushnell Elite you are talking about. For a little more dough you can get the Weaver 3-10x40 Tactical which is for all intents and purposes the variable version of the same scope (made by LOW).

Also you might want to try shooting long distance with an ACOG before you dismiss them, when I went through SDM training headshots at 548 meters were relatively easy even with the 4x TA01 models. Trijicon makes a 5.5 power ACOG in addition to the standard 4x and 3x models. For 500 yards and under magnification isn't a huge factor, clarity and repeatability are what you want to look for.

A fixed 6x scope is a joy to use in that range, especially on a 308. The 10x scope Americans are used to is on the heavy end of magnification for the intended use, most European snipers are using fixed 6x scopes, although variables have come into fashion lately for snipers on both sides of the pond.

Jimro
 
Top end? ACOG with 7.62 calibrated reticle.
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Also you might want to try shooting long distance with an ACOG before you dismiss them, when I went through SDM training headshots at 548 meters were relatively easy even with the 4x TA01 models.
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I will help with dismissing them. Yes, you can make long range shots with ACOGs. However, being calibrated is a bit misleading. No, it is a lot misleading. The scope isn't calibrated to the particular ammo (weight, velocity, B/C) and environmental conditions unless you happen to be shooting the correct ammo out of a gun that will produce the correct velocity and are doing so in the correct environmental conditions.

Assuming the ACOG is calibrated for the M80 ball, then if you aren't shooting M80 ball at the same velocity and conditions, the reticle will be off..

So if you zero the scope properly and are using the wrong ammo, or it leaves the barrel at the wrong velocity, or the conditions aren't right, then the further way you get from your zero distance, the great the error of the "calibrated" reticle which means your POI differs more and more with distance from your POA as per the reticle.

The other problem is that the calibrated cross hairs are very limited to only particular distances. So if your POI doesn't match the 500 meter crosshair POA, then you have to figure out where it is and then just remember that it is about (e.g.) 1/3 the distance below the 500 m cross hair and the 600 m crosshair.

You can shoot precisely with an ACOG (I own 2), but it is much easier to shoot consistently precisely with a scope with target knobs and a bit know known range dope.
 
I use Leupold optics on my M14s.


Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T with M2 dials and Illuminated SPR.
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Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T with M2 dials and Illuminated TMR.
LongRangeRig.JPG

Offset Insight MRDS
OFFSET.JPG



I would like to try out a Elcan SpecterDr 1x6 for 7.62 in the near future.
 
I would say it depends on whether he's content with shooting plates at 500, or groups...

Magnification is definitely a factor if you're shooting for itty bitty groups, and a 4x sure wouldn't be my choice at that distance any more than irons would be at 100 yards...

If he's really "target shooting"- as in groups- personally I wouldn't go with anything less than a 15x at that range. Does he have the heavy barrel, target model FNAR?
 
I would say it depends on whether he's content with shooting plates at 500, or groups...

Magnification is definitely a factor if you're shooting for itty bitty groups, and a 4x sure wouldn't be my choice at that distance any more than irons would be at 100 yards...

If he's really "target shooting"- as in groups- personally I wouldn't go with anything less than a 15x at that range. Does he have the 20" heavy barrel, target model FNAR?
 
IMHO a nice 3x10 or 3x12 is what you want ,3 for up close and 12x for 500 yards . Ther are a lot of great scopes in the $400.00 to $500.00 ( street price ) range that would work . A 30mm tube with at least a 40 mm objective would work fine . Nikon or Bushnell have some good scopes at that price . Make sure you get one with pleanty of elivation and at least 3.5 inchs of eye releif .
 
Yes. It is the 20" heavy barrel model. He wants to start shooting for groups at those ranges and go longer if we can get the hang of it. I'm good with iron sights out to around 300m or so. I can hit a man/deer size target in the torso pretty consistently. I wouldn't mind reaching out and knocking down some white tails at 500 though. Sounds like a challenge.
 
I've got an SWFA "Super Sniper" (snicker) 10X on my M1A. Cost me about $350. It is holding up well to the operation of the weapon and I work it routinely 400 to 500 yds.

It has a mil-dot reticle, but MOA turrets (not a great combination). However, it does have a side parallax knob which is nice. I don't use the reticle for my vertical adjustments and just dial them in from the tables. Windage is pure hold off SWAG.

This past weekend I cleaned 15 out of 15 4 inch plates with 15 rounds at 400 yards.

When I went up to reset the plates five big old gobblers waddled out of the bushes on the berm behind the plate line. I swear they were laughing at me as they strutted off into the woods.:o
 
Okay, Ike. Your gonna have to help me out here. Lol.

What do you mean by MOA turrets? I know what MOA is and how to calculate it, but I don't know what you mean by turrets.
 
MOA turrets are what you're probably used to, as opposed to mil turrets...
A "mil/mil" scope features turrets that adjust in mils, as opposed to minutes of angle...that's all.

If you use a mildot reticle for ranging, then a mil/mil scope can be more intuitive to use.

In reality, I think that range estimating by use of mildot reticles is best left to the twentieth century...
While I know I'll get flamed by some purists, if I need to range a target in this day and age, I'll use a laser rangefinder...
 
I have a Leupold MK IV 4.5x14 LR/T with Mil Dot reticle mounted on my AR-10 and love it. A bit pricey but worth the money.
 
Micah, as others have indicated the turrets are the elevation and windage adjustment knobs. They have detents that provide a tactile click when moved. The turret clicks are graduated in some unit of measure (usually 1/10th, 1/4th, or 1/2 MOA; or 1 mil per click) so you know how much you are moving the reticle in the focal plane.

The reticle also has graduation marks to assist in hold-over (elevation) or hold-off (windage, to compensate for wind).

A good scope has the turrets and the reticle graduations in the same unit of measurement. Some less expensive scopes (such as the 10X Super Sniper) mix and match. Mine has a mil-dot reticle, with measures in milradians (a 1 meter distance subtended at 1000 meters). This was the way old school designated marksmen were taught to estimate range (the distance between two dots is 1 meter at 1000 meters, .5 meters at 500 meters, etc.). The turret adjustments are in 1/4 MOA per click. This works out fine b/c I work from a ballistic table in MOA "clicks" taped to the stock. I just ignore the mil-dots in the reticle. I really wasn't paying attention when I ordered the scope b/c it is available with an MOA reticle.

As noted above it is very 20th Century tech. I personally use a Nikon Rifleman rangefinder to estimate range rather than the scope. On my long-range precision rifles I use Nightforce 5x22 scopes with MOA graduations in the reticle. This assists in both elevation and windage adjustments on the fly. But I range with the rangefinder.

Don't get me wrong, the SWFA scope is great on my M1A, and is certainly good enough to get me out to 1000 yards (remember better marksmen than I shoot this distance with iron sights). I bought it as a "placeholder" scope on a different rifle (Winnie M70 Stealth) until the NF (back-ordered) arrived.

I'd had an old Springfield ART IV scope on the M1A and moved it to another rifle when I realized how good it was. I needed something for the M1A and put the Super Sniper on it. It works great, I just ignore the mil-dots in the reticle (and I even know how to use them).
 
I have an AR type rifle in 308. I traded into a Weaver Tactical 3-15x50 front focal plane. Mil/mil as they say. I do alot of tactical type shooting with it out to 500 yards(hitting the target first shot is more important than group size in this game) and it's been great. You didn't mention a price range but the Weaver seems to run between $700 and $750 depending on the dealer and any coupon codes you may have. I'll be taking it hunting this year for the first time also, and the wide magnification range (3x - 15x) makes it faster up close than a really high powered scope with enough magnification at the top end to get good groups and identify and range targets easily, this makes it much more versatile than the fixed 10x scopes suggested. Try to get a quick shot on a moving target (deer or whatever)80 yards away with a 10x scope, it's not easy due to the small field of view at higher magnification. In price vs performance I think the Weaver and the Vortex Viper PST are in the sweet spot for those who don't want to spend a ton on a scope, but everyone has their own idea of what spending alot on a scope is.

I personally would recommend against an ACOG. I had one on an AR15 and although the glass is good, the eye relief was very short and someone above already warned you about calibrated reticles. There is also the limitation of it being a fixed power scope with relatively low magnification. For combat use the ACOG is a good option, but targets out to 500? Not for me.

There are alot of options out there at different price points, and if your friend is only target shooting at a range then a fixed 10x would be a good choice. Personally I like options and a variable scope allows you to be prepared for anything that you may want to use the rifle for in the future. 12x is plenty for 500 yards, but a little more never hurts as long as you're not giving up the low end field of view (i.e. a 6-24x).
 
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