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Only in America.
- Thread starter TDB4
- Start date
cornered rat
Moderator
I respectfully disagree. Having left Russia, in part, to get away from the draft, I view it as legalized slavery. When "my" government decides to put me in harm's way for a cause with which I disagree,draft-doging looks good. Feeding the folks who brought us the draft to the hogs looks even better.
I can incriminate many things to Comrade Clinton, but draft-doging isn't one of them.
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Cornered Rat
http://dd-b.net/RKBA RKBA posters
http://dd-b.net/olegv Portrait, nature photos
I can incriminate many things to Comrade Clinton, but draft-doging isn't one of them.
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Cornered Rat
http://dd-b.net/RKBA RKBA posters
http://dd-b.net/olegv Portrait, nature photos
Jumping in here is kind of like the repeal drug law threads. The draft should be eliminated in a free society. In defense of our nation, we(or most of us) are already part of the national militia sworn to defend against immediate threats on our shores via our citizenship and right to bear arms. Anything else does not make sense in terms of personal freedom. No government should have the ability to transport me to another place on the planet and expect me to defend a cause with which I have no relationship, with my life. To be subject to a lottery of governmental whim is unacceptable to me as a free citizen. We are talking about a Federal Government that the Founders wished to avoid.I refuse to speak of Clinton in relation to brave men and women who CHOSE to sacrifice portions at best of their lives for their country.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
The draft should NOT BE NEEDED because it's citizens SHOULD ALREADY BE LINING UP to DEFEND THERE HOMES!
But Thats not what the US has been doing... We dont DEFEND anymore - we travel far to carry out police actions. While these may be valid - respectable - worthwhile - They should not be subject to drafting.
A call to arms for fighting on other soils should be a choice. While I respect those going "over there" - at this time, I will stay here.
Should I have a loved ones or a pressing intrest "over there"... well, then you couldnt STOP ME from going.
Hey - that felt good! I have not beat my chest for some time.
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I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
But Thats not what the US has been doing... We dont DEFEND anymore - we travel far to carry out police actions. While these may be valid - respectable - worthwhile - They should not be subject to drafting.
A call to arms for fighting on other soils should be a choice. While I respect those going "over there" - at this time, I will stay here.
Should I have a loved ones or a pressing intrest "over there"... well, then you couldnt STOP ME from going.
Hey - that felt good! I have not beat my chest for some time.
------------------
I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
If I'm wrong please correct me, but from what I have read our militia system that the founders wanted was based upon popular opinion. If a war was not popular, the militia as a whole would not support it. It was intended as a check against abuses by our government. Conversly, if the defense was real, there was no other way to garner a large army so fast. See, arms should only be used in defense, never for agression. When ever we march our troops to another country, when that country has not fired upon us first, that is agression. Don't get me wrong I've always supported our troops, even though I may not have supported the leaders who have ordered them into harms way.
That's the difference between a standing army and a militia system. A soldier in the standing army will go and do what is ordered. A member of the militia will only fight when the cause is just. This tends to make the rulers think twice about agression. Is one of the reasons why our founders were opposed to a standing army and wanted to rely on a militia system.
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Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
That's the difference between a standing army and a militia system. A soldier in the standing army will go and do what is ordered. A member of the militia will only fight when the cause is just. This tends to make the rulers think twice about agression. Is one of the reasons why our founders were opposed to a standing army and wanted to rely on a militia system.
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Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Bookie - Yes it was what every one wanted - But thats not why. Your a little off base - It was supported because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
Methinks thats an ALIEN CONCEPT now...
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I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
Methinks thats an ALIEN CONCEPT now...
------------------
I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
Mike Spight
New member
Cornered Rat:
I can...the basic reason he dodged the draft is because he's a coward...afraid of being physically injured/killed or performing demanding physical activity. Serving ones country via the draft (I had received my notice in 1969 and opted to enlist) isn't slavery...it's serving the nation one is privileged to live in, assuming that the nation is worthy of service.
In your particular case, it probably beat two years in a Motorized Rifle Regiment somewhere west of the Urals being hazed 24 hrs a day by the older draftees with NCOs and officers who were too drunk on a regular basis to care one way or the other...I don't blame you at all.
Mike
I can...the basic reason he dodged the draft is because he's a coward...afraid of being physically injured/killed or performing demanding physical activity. Serving ones country via the draft (I had received my notice in 1969 and opted to enlist) isn't slavery...it's serving the nation one is privileged to live in, assuming that the nation is worthy of service.
In your particular case, it probably beat two years in a Motorized Rifle Regiment somewhere west of the Urals being hazed 24 hrs a day by the older draftees with NCOs and officers who were too drunk on a regular basis to care one way or the other...I don't blame you at all.
Mike
Mike Spight
New member
Gary:
Good idea ref Docs who default on their school loans...military health care is in a serious bind due to lack of physicians, PAs, etc.
Only one problem with bringing one of those overpaid dirtbags into the military...their attitude would be so bad, they'd probably provide crappy/indifferent care for the soldiers and their families. For any commander worth his salt, the first time that happened and he was able to confirm it, they'd be down at the Post clinic/hospital choking the idiot out, then they'd be facing charges, but you know, it would be worth the aggravation.
Mike
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited October 09, 1999).]
Good idea ref Docs who default on their school loans...military health care is in a serious bind due to lack of physicians, PAs, etc.
Only one problem with bringing one of those overpaid dirtbags into the military...their attitude would be so bad, they'd probably provide crappy/indifferent care for the soldiers and their families. For any commander worth his salt, the first time that happened and he was able to confirm it, they'd be down at the Post clinic/hospital choking the idiot out, then they'd be facing charges, but you know, it would be worth the aggravation.
Mike
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited October 09, 1999).]
cornered rat
Moderator
Mike, you seem to know enough of the Russkie situation to understand why I viewed the draft there as a death by torture sentence. I would like to comment on your other view, not to disagree, just to state my opinion further.
Serving ones country via the draft (I had received my notice in 1969 and opted to enlist) isn't slavery...it's serving the nation one is privileged to live in, assuming that the nation is worthy of service.
This country is very much worthy of service. I would defend the United States as my home. Similarly, I would defend and take damage for, if needed, for my parents.
That last response would change to incredulity and non-compliance should my parents ever ask me to go beat up their co-workers, or shoot someone for "dissing" them or tell me to rob a bank so that they may get a new beemer. I would not go along with an order to go settle domestic quarrel of someone in another town whom I do not even know...and who has already "progressed" to using AKMs to settle family arguments.
By the same logic, I will defend my country from all enemies, foreign and domestic, to the best of my understanding as to who's who and what is going on...but I will not go to some other country to do King Clinton's bidding for him and possibly buy the farm in the process. My loyalty and responsibility are to my family first, my country next and "my" government, never.
I admire people who have volunteered and had the luck to break through to Dachau, who felt strongly enough (hopefully not because of uncritical acceptance of the state propaganda) to risk their lives and limbs to save others. I, at most, respect yet feel sorry for people who got caught up in the draft on the way to various unnecessary foreign tours. we have witnessed thoughout time.
Besides, I would never consider serving people who would actively disarm me whenever I am not enlisted with them. If I am to fight at a place and time not of my choosing, I might as at least choose my cause. And my cause would be staying out of Democratic Republic of Elbonia which is not all that different from Socialist Hell-hole of North Elbonia which we must defeat lest...
A call to arms for a worthy cause would be answered, however much it may cost in injuries or years of life. An order to attack someone, needlessly would be aswered one shot at a a time.
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Cornered Rat
http://dd-b.net/RKBA RKBA posters
http://dd-b.net/olegv Portrait, nature photos
Serving ones country via the draft (I had received my notice in 1969 and opted to enlist) isn't slavery...it's serving the nation one is privileged to live in, assuming that the nation is worthy of service.
This country is very much worthy of service. I would defend the United States as my home. Similarly, I would defend and take damage for, if needed, for my parents.
That last response would change to incredulity and non-compliance should my parents ever ask me to go beat up their co-workers, or shoot someone for "dissing" them or tell me to rob a bank so that they may get a new beemer. I would not go along with an order to go settle domestic quarrel of someone in another town whom I do not even know...and who has already "progressed" to using AKMs to settle family arguments.
By the same logic, I will defend my country from all enemies, foreign and domestic, to the best of my understanding as to who's who and what is going on...but I will not go to some other country to do King Clinton's bidding for him and possibly buy the farm in the process. My loyalty and responsibility are to my family first, my country next and "my" government, never.
I admire people who have volunteered and had the luck to break through to Dachau, who felt strongly enough (hopefully not because of uncritical acceptance of the state propaganda) to risk their lives and limbs to save others. I, at most, respect yet feel sorry for people who got caught up in the draft on the way to various unnecessary foreign tours. we have witnessed thoughout time.
Besides, I would never consider serving people who would actively disarm me whenever I am not enlisted with them. If I am to fight at a place and time not of my choosing, I might as at least choose my cause. And my cause would be staying out of Democratic Republic of Elbonia which is not all that different from Socialist Hell-hole of North Elbonia which we must defeat lest...
A call to arms for a worthy cause would be answered, however much it may cost in injuries or years of life. An order to attack someone, needlessly would be aswered one shot at a a time.
------------------
Cornered Rat
http://dd-b.net/RKBA RKBA posters
http://dd-b.net/olegv Portrait, nature photos
Ed Brunner
New member
Support of the draft is a two-edged sword. If another country attacks the USA you can fight or surrender. I'm not too keen about fighting everyone else's wars. I did not respect Cassius Clay for not serving, but I respected him for showing up and disagreeing in person. He said something to the effect that he didnt have anything against those little people.Our fearless leader chickened out!
I talked to a retired career NCO last week who explained why he could never vote for slick or Al Gore. He said that you can just tell by looking that neither of them had ever whipped anybody's a$$. I liked it!
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Better days to be,
Ed
I talked to a retired career NCO last week who explained why he could never vote for slick or Al Gore. He said that you can just tell by looking that neither of them had ever whipped anybody's a$$. I liked it!
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Better days to be,
Ed
I've heard many Vets say the war was right but the way it was fought was wrong, Because the communist have killed millions of people, mostly in thare own countries.
All I'm saying is it's not right for a Domestic enemy of the US Constitution to lead our Country, While Vets go hungry and homeless.
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FREEDOM AIN'T FREE!
[This message has been edited by TDB4 (edited October 09, 1999).]
All I'm saying is it's not right for a Domestic enemy of the US Constitution to lead our Country, While Vets go hungry and homeless.
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FREEDOM AIN'T FREE!
[This message has been edited by TDB4 (edited October 09, 1999).]
Ed Brunner
New member
Another point on the draft,using Vetnam as an example. If out national policy had been that all men from age 21 thru 50 had to go and stay until it was over, how long do you think it would have lasted?
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Better days to be,
Ed
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Better days to be,
Ed
cornered rat
Moderator
Adding to the above...draft women, too. That ought to make some of them think twice before they support "kicking butt" somewhere. As a bumper sticker said: "Draft Chelsia!"
This may be old fashioned but I believe that if you want to live in and reap the benefits of this country you have a responsibility to give something to it.
I was against the war in Vietnam but served my time ( and some extra) because I felt it was something I owed.
Clinton and the other Draft Dodgers were only looking out for their own skin. They were cowards. The real heroes are the guys who went to jail or served as noncombatants because of their beliefs.
A lot of people dodged the draft, some joined the guard or reserves to stay out of 'Nam. Some joined the Peace Corps, got married and had a child, declared themselves Homosexuals or disfigured themselves to avoid the draft. ( I personally know of examples of each of the above). I was deferred for 4 years while attending college.
We have lost something when we did away with the draft. We now have little more than a mercenary army whose members serve for the benefits and the chance to go to college on the Gi Bill ( or whatever they call it these days)
I remember when it was a right of passage to serve in the military and those who didn't were looked down on. Now we look down on those who serve as loosers who can't make it on their own and need the military to help them.
We should reinstate the draft, for women too, and make it a requirement for citizenship. Maybe then voting would mean something and we would have a true representative Republic, rather than the tyranny we enjoy now.
Geoff Ross
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Damn!...I need more practice!
Pi$$ off the left, register to vote.
I was against the war in Vietnam but served my time ( and some extra) because I felt it was something I owed.
Clinton and the other Draft Dodgers were only looking out for their own skin. They were cowards. The real heroes are the guys who went to jail or served as noncombatants because of their beliefs.
A lot of people dodged the draft, some joined the guard or reserves to stay out of 'Nam. Some joined the Peace Corps, got married and had a child, declared themselves Homosexuals or disfigured themselves to avoid the draft. ( I personally know of examples of each of the above). I was deferred for 4 years while attending college.
We have lost something when we did away with the draft. We now have little more than a mercenary army whose members serve for the benefits and the chance to go to college on the Gi Bill ( or whatever they call it these days)
I remember when it was a right of passage to serve in the military and those who didn't were looked down on. Now we look down on those who serve as loosers who can't make it on their own and need the military to help them.
We should reinstate the draft, for women too, and make it a requirement for citizenship. Maybe then voting would mean something and we would have a true representative Republic, rather than the tyranny we enjoy now.
Geoff Ross
------------------
Damn!...I need more practice!
Pi$$ off the left, register to vote.
Sorry, folks. I can buy some of your points, but not all.
I can respect a person’s beliefs without agreeing with him. No problem.
If he goes to jail for those beliefs, that’s his choice. But it does NOT
make him a hero.
To respect Cassius Clay for his boxing expertise is fine if you respect
someone because he can beat another human unconscious. But sending
poorer people to support his way of life doesn’t make him a hero to me -
remember he already was wealthy and beyond what most Americans will
ever dream of.
I can respect the beliefs of a person who is non-violent and serves as a
non-combatant, but I can’t call him a hero solely on that basis.
Some of the heroes I have known put their lives into jeopardy going into
Laos to bring back stranded Americans. Some were para-rescue men
who dropped down a hundred or more feet of rope to find, treat, and
recover fellow Americans.
I’ll bet other TFL members knew heroes, or even WERE heroes, risking
their lives to save their fellow servicemen. To call a draft dodger a hero
for sitting in an American jail is beyond my use of the word hero. It
pales when compared to those who sat in the Hanoi Hilton and other
such confinement.
--------------
Furthermore, for every sorry individual you know of in the military there
also are fine people, doing a fine job under difficult conditions. To
suggest otherwise is unfair, unrealistic, and shows more emotion that
thought.
To suggest they are losers trying only to get on the government teat
shows a petty jealousy beyond words and reason.
To make military service mandatory for all able-bodied young Americans
may have merit. But not when it is suggested as a sly form of
punishment, retribution, or indentured servitude.
Regardless of my advanced years, I still remember it is the old men who
send the young men off to die.
I’m getting just a bit too warm to continue right now so I’ll stop now
while I am still somewhat coherent.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 10, 1999).]
I can respect a person’s beliefs without agreeing with him. No problem.
If he goes to jail for those beliefs, that’s his choice. But it does NOT
make him a hero.
To respect Cassius Clay for his boxing expertise is fine if you respect
someone because he can beat another human unconscious. But sending
poorer people to support his way of life doesn’t make him a hero to me -
remember he already was wealthy and beyond what most Americans will
ever dream of.
I can respect the beliefs of a person who is non-violent and serves as a
non-combatant, but I can’t call him a hero solely on that basis.
Some of the heroes I have known put their lives into jeopardy going into
Laos to bring back stranded Americans. Some were para-rescue men
who dropped down a hundred or more feet of rope to find, treat, and
recover fellow Americans.
I’ll bet other TFL members knew heroes, or even WERE heroes, risking
their lives to save their fellow servicemen. To call a draft dodger a hero
for sitting in an American jail is beyond my use of the word hero. It
pales when compared to those who sat in the Hanoi Hilton and other
such confinement.
--------------
Furthermore, for every sorry individual you know of in the military there
also are fine people, doing a fine job under difficult conditions. To
suggest otherwise is unfair, unrealistic, and shows more emotion that
thought.
To suggest they are losers trying only to get on the government teat
shows a petty jealousy beyond words and reason.
To make military service mandatory for all able-bodied young Americans
may have merit. But not when it is suggested as a sly form of
punishment, retribution, or indentured servitude.
Regardless of my advanced years, I still remember it is the old men who
send the young men off to die.
I’m getting just a bit too warm to continue right now so I’ll stop now
while I am still somewhat coherent.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 10, 1999).]
Reinstate the draft. Everyone , and i mean everyone, serves 3 years active duty. And after the three years active duty, one is allowed to take their M-16's home with them,with the ammo, and would be on active reserve for years. There would be no Wacos or abuse of citizens rights then ,I bet. The Swiss have the right idea and have a Real armed citizenry!We would have a true citizens Army ready to defend the homeland from domestic or foreign enemies.