Online load data question

Danb6177

New member
I have went through some of the links listed here for load data. I load 357 magnum presently. The Lyman book I use calls for hornady XTP JHP. I am finding that the online data sights also use this bullet. Is there a reason for this? There are less expensive options like berrys for example. But cannot find data for berrys bullets. The local place here sells bullets but they are also not hornady.
Are all 158 grain bullet data the same? Can I substitute any 158 grain bullet that I want? Intelligence would tell me that if bullet weights are the same then I can interchange them. But then I remembered I’m not that smart
 
Load data is somewhat expensive to generate. Powder vendors typically pick a bullet that they think is popular or is from a company that they have some affiliation with.

Second tier bullet makers do not generally bother to worry about doing you any favors with respect to load data.

I am pretty sure many second tier bullets are used more in "mid range" loads. If you are loading "mid range", using load data for a different bullet generally works fine just because you never approach the max value listed.

With respect to Berry's bullets, their standard product is only intended for mid range loads.

If you are trying to load anywhere near max, you should consider published load data to be specific to the key components used.

I will try to talk through some items that come to mind. I will list them in the order of what I think is important. Note that this discussion is specific to what people think of as handgun ammo.

A key element of the assembled round is percent fill. The percent fill is a function of internal case capacity (thicker walled brass will have less internal volume), bullet seating depth and the volume occupied by the powder charge. I use a load prediction software called Quickload. For a specific 44 Special load I recently ran, I found that increasing the seating depth on the bullet by 0.1" required a 5% reduction of the charge to keep the same pressure.

Just to complicate things, seating depth is not always obvious. Load data will list COAL, but to determine seating depth, you also need case length (easy to find) and bullet length (not as easy to find). Also, many revolver bullets are intended to be seated based on a crimp groove or cannelure. Seating to a crimp groove is usually the right thing to do, but it can complicate things if the bullet you have has the crimp groove at a different location than the one specified in the load data you can find.

The next biggest consideration is probably bullet construction. Both the shape and the materials of construction affect the amount of pressure needed to push the bullet out of the gun. High initial resistance to movement is generally a good thing for assuring proper ignition and burn of the powder. On the other hand, high friction resistance can really reduce muzzle velocity if you start talking about pistol rounds in long barrel lever guns.

Brass is next. Oddball brass with lower than normal internal volume is not that common, but is not unheard of. Watch out for this and discard (or separate) oddball brass if at all possible. Brass can also matter where some brands will grip the bullet more firmly than other brands. This usually does not make much difference unless you are using something like H110 where you want as much grip as possible to assure good ignition.

Primers are more of a random variable. Actual testing by shooters have frequently shown no change with substitutions, and/or unexpected changes. Fortunately as long as you are getting "good ignition", the magnitude of impact is generally small. Again, there is the special case of powders like H110 where you want "hot" primers to ensure good ignition. Unfortunately the primer makers have never published much if any info to quantify the relative hotness of primers. Some "magnum" primers may be more about tougher cups than about how hot the compound is.

Reloading manuals generally talk about working up loads. However, do not be fooled into thinking that working up a load is assured to result in ammo that does not exceed SAAMI pressure limits. Rarely will you be able to spot that a round is just over SAAMI limits in a revolver round by looking at a primer or noticing hard extraction. Yes you should work up loads, but most reloaders should not rely on the workup process to be foolproof.

If you want to load near max in a revolver, my advice is to use the exact bullet at the exact COAL listed.

Using a bullet with no specific load data can be safely loaded to "near max" for use in a revolver, but this is generally not a good idea unless you are a pretty advanced reloader.

I have loaded 357 magnums with various bullets and powders for many decades. I rarely load anything "near max". The only exception to this is my loads for a lever gun. This gun is also sold in 44 magnum and as such I know it can handle pretty much any 357 load that does not destroy the brass. Generally speaking, if I want more power, I use a bigger gun, not hotter loads.

If you want specific advice for a load, provide as many details as possible. This includes gun, barrel length, desired velocity (or something to help describe desired "power level"), desired powders, bullet, bullet length if not a common bullet, desired COAL.

You will probably get some good advice. Sorting through the responses to find the "good" advice will be up to you.
 
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That data is not unusable as a starting point, but often there is a lead load or copper plated load available if you look. Lead and copper plated are pretty close. Cup&core like the XTR is a bit different, but close. Basically, I find that powders are wrong.

In lead and CP, I like powders like titegroup, AA#5, Bullseye. In C&C, I prefer Longshot, CFEPistol, H110, etc. A person can load a performance CP load with CFEPistol, if the bullet can handle the velocity.
 
A key element of the assembled round is percent fill.

In my experience, case fill, while a factor isn't a key element, just one thing among many.

Load data will list COAL, but to determine seating depth, you also need case length (easy to find) and bullet length (not as easy to find).

You don't need bullet length to determine how much of the bullet is inside the case. Just subtract case length from COAL. And, bullet length is easy to find, just measure the bullet with your calipers.

Unfortunately the primer makers have never published much if any info to quantify the relative hotness of primers. Some "magnum" primers may be more about tougher cups than about how hot the compound is.

Some have. Look up "primer brisance", you'll find a lot of charts.

I have loaded 357 magnums with various bullets and powders for many decades. I rarely load anything "near max".

I have loaded 357 magnums with various bullets and powders for many decades. I rarely load anything but "near max" level loads.

TO me, that's the point of the .357 MAGNUM. :D

When I want something less, I shoot .38 Specials.

I load 357 magnum presently. The Lyman book I use calls for hornady XTP JHP. I am finding that the online data sights also use this bullet. Is there a reason for this?

Yes, there is a reason, its a good bullet for maximum performance. XTP stands for Extreme Terminal Performance. Meaning the bullet is designed to penetrate and expand well in living targets.

Commonly available reloading data tends to focus on what the compilers think most people are interested in, and generally that is top end performance.

Are all 158 grain bullet data the same?
No.

Can I substitute any 158 grain bullet that I want?
This is a yes and no thing, along with a HELL NO! thing.

You can, physically do it, but you should not, because the results can go from being "suboptimal" to "horribly bad" depending on the specifics involved.

Bullet construction is a key factor here. Use max load data for a jacketed slug to drive a soft lead bullet and the best you will likely get is a bore coated in lead, which RAPIDLY becomes UNSAFE and shooting a badly leaded bore can damage or even destroy your gun.

Shooting low level "target" loads for cast bullets can result in a jacketed bullet not exiting the barrel, and that's also a VERY BAD thing.

different loads with different powders for different bullets and uses, all different for good reasons. THere are some situations where things overlap and can be swapped without worry, but that's not a given in any specific situation and NOT something to be done when you're not knowlegeable and experienced with what you are working with.
 
Case fill matters little in many instances. In other cases it matters a lot. There are lots of examples out there where a small amount of setback (increase in case fill percentage) of a 9mm or 40mm round converted a near max load into an over the max load. For 357 mag, case fill matters most when you are using the magnum powders.

Yes bullet length is easy to determine for the one you have in your hand. But what about that one in the load data. If you do not have one for reference, finding the info is generally not a "just look it up" thing.

Primer brisance is messy. Yes there is info out there.

Here is a link I keep around https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/a-primer-on-primers.6936610/

I have looked at primers a lot. First off, primer "power" is not what is needed for harder to ignite powders. You need just enough "power" combined with hot flames and hot particles to penetrate the powder column and result in uniform ignition. Too much "power" and the bullet can be pushed forward before the powder gets burning good. This can lead to poor and/or uneven burn.

And for most sources of info on how "hot" a primer is, the focus is on large rifle with little or no info on small pistol. I have never seen any info with good test data behind it to show your best chance for decent ignition in a suboptimal situation. If there were a primer that could reliably handle say a 110 gr bullet in a 357 magnum over a finicky lot of H110 (like mine) fired from loose fitting case at -10 degf, I assure you it would be easy to market and we would all know about it.

For me there is ample enjoyment from shooting something well above 38 Special, but not up close to 35000 psi in a 357 Mag. When I am just making holes in paper, I do not need to push 357 Mag revolvers beyond say 30,000 psi. I value these guns very much.

I do have a very heavy 357 revolver load, but it is for my Dan Wesson 357 Maximum. I tend to rarely shoot the load unless I am trying to knock down steel targets at distances out to 200 meters. And yes the multitude of heavy rounds I have put through this gun have resulted in it showing more "wear and tear" than I really like.

Now if a 357 mag is you most powerful handgun, I understand the desire to shoot some amount of the "big bang" stuff. My regular range rotation frequently includes a "big bang" load that tends to make folks look my way. Currently it is a 7 TCU load that pushes a powder coated Lee 128 gr to around 1900 fps from a 10" gun :D. It is my offhand IHMSA practice load.
 
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Berry's has published limits
1,250fps for standard plated bullets.
1,500fps for their thick plate bullets.

If you look at your bullet on Berry's website there will be a tab labeled "loading tips" it has the recommended COL.

Find a bullet with a similar style, and work your load up making sure your chosen load does not exceed Berry's velocity limits.
 
There are lots of examples out there where a small amount of setback (increase in case fill percentage) of a 9mm or 40mm round converted a near max load into an over the max load.

Yep, but the 9mm and the .40 are "special cases", in that they are small volume cases already loaded to high pressures, so a very small change in the volume of the powder space has a significant impact on the pressure. This is not the case with may other rounds, particularly rounds like the .38 Special, or any of the larger cased rounds. AND, it also depends on the type and amount of powder being used.

For example, for over a century, the usual .38 Special target load has been a flush seated wadcutter (148gr usually( and somewhere between 2 and 5 grains of a fast powder, and that amount doesn't even fill 1/4 of the volume available in the case.

Personally, I prefer to use powders that fill the case about half-way or more. Not because I'm concerned about the "empty space" but because a double charge is easily, and almost instantly seen.


For bullet length:
But what about that one in the load data. If you do not have one for reference, finding the info is generally not a "just look it up" thing.

The way I look at it, if you don't have one in your hand to measure, you don't have any to load, so how relevant is it, actually??

Primer "brisance"
"Brisance" is one of those terms that has multiple meaning, depending on context. Like "caliber" context determines what is being referred to, more than the common definition.

Look up "brisance" and you'll find it refers to the "shattering force of an explosive" and/or the speed of propagation of the blast wave.

BUT, when you're talking primers, its commonly used to describe the length, duration and "strength" of the flame. Like caliber, which means the size of the bore & projectile in small arms, in artillery and naval "rifles" caliber ALSO means the length of the gun barrel in bore diameters. Context matters.

And for most sources of info on how "hot" a primer is, the focus is on large rifle with little or no info on small pistol.

And you're not likely to find that, for good reason. First point, its a popularity thing, more research and testing goes into area the testers feel their readership is most interested in. And most of the time, that is the high performance end of things.

Second point, look at what you're lighting off. With the biggest volume cases made to use small pistol primers, you're igniting something less than 20gr powder, often only 3/4 of that, or less. With magnum rifle cases you can be lighting off somewhere between 50 and 80 some grains of slow powders. Its not an apples to apples straight comparison.

I run my .357 loads to the full potential of the round, or close to that. Yes, part of that is because I do enjoy the "big boom" but its also so I am practiced and capable with the most "serious" rounds I am going to shoot.

I don't (and won't) have any small guns in .357, and I'm not going to download my rounds to run in them. My current .357s are S&W model 28, (6" N frame) Ruger New Model Blackhawk (the large frame one), A Contender (10"), a Desert Eagle and a Marlin 1894 carbine. Got rid of my K frames years ago, and won't consider anything smaller, period.

They are big, beefy guns, built to run on full house loads, and do it well.

I also have a selection of .44 and .45 caliber pistols that put the .357 in the shade, in terms of power, and "big boom". :D
 
Berry's has published limits
1,250fps for standard plated bullets.
1,500fps for their thick plate bullets.

If you look at your bullet on Berry's website there will be a tab labeled "loading tips" it has the recommended COL.

Find a bullet with a similar style, and work your load up making sure your chosen load does not exceed Berry's velocity limits.
yes i noticed that on the berry site. I guess if i had a chronograph and worked the loads up that info would help, but i do not have one. I was wanting something like a load date for other bullets with powder grains and all. People say they use acc 9 powder for 357 loads and use cast lead and fmj bullets. I just dont see that data anywhere. Maybe its an experience thing i need to figure out on my own.
 
Are all 158 grain bullet data the same? Can I substitute any 158 grain bullet that I want?
If the bullets are made the same, generally, yes you can. That said, Berry's tend to be plated, as opposed to a FMJ and they recommend no velocity over 1200fps, whereas some 357 loads can easily go above that.
 
In my searches I found something cool right along the line of what I’m looking for. It’s called the “complete reloading manual for the ( insert caliper here ). Basically an individual manual for each different caliper load. So there are a bunch of them. It will have the data for JHP but also other bullets if the same grain weight like TMJ which is the bullet data that I’m looking for.

Anyone ever used this series for loading?
 
Seems like a good idea but the business moves on.
From the Loadbooks USA www
"All of our manuals have been updated 1/1/17"

So as long as you don't want to use a powder or bullet that has been introduced in the past seven years, you will find it convenient.
 
Loadbooks provide data which is already available free. I found a need to verify loads to current on-line data (which is current).
I did not see the value in collecting old data that did not include latest powders.
 
Loadbooks provide data which is already available free. I found a need to verify loads to current on-line data (which is current).
I did not see the value in collecting old data that did not include latest powders.
Yeah agree but like 90% of them are wadcutters and JHP. I wanted to use TMJ. Hard to find data for that online
 
Was gonna use Berrys but no data there at all online. But I see in this reload manual 158 grain is 158 grain. Hollow and solid the same. There is conflicting stuff here. I’m happy if the specs are universal for a Specific grain bullet hollow point or not. I’ll
Just load em
 
Say What?

Berrys but no data there at all online
FALSE. You have made at least two major blunders in that statement.
Read Berrys website, FAQs, loading tips. Berrys tells you that you can use ANY data so long as bullet weight and profile are similar. As long as you stay below the max velocity specified in Berrys Loading Tips on every product page.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/faqs/
"Load data from any load manual or website can be used. Full-metal jacketed, lead bullet, or plated bullet load data can be used as long as the following standards are adhered to:
The data contains the correct grain weight of bullet.
Berry’s max recommended velocity is not exceeded. (This info is displayed on bullet boxes and product webpages.)
Standard Plate Bullets Max Velocity: 1,250 fps.
Thick-Plate Bullets (TP) Max Velocity: 1,500 fps.
Do not over-crimp the bullet. Crimping so tight that bullet deformation occurs, or plating is separated causing visible exposure of the lead core will cause tumbling, key-holing, and reduced accuracy.
Load data containing bullet descriptions such as Plated (P,) Berry’s Bullet (BERB,) Total Metal Jacket (TMJ,) Copper Plated (CP,) or CPJ (Copper Plated Jacket,) refers to plated bullet data.
Cartridge Overall Lengths (COL) are found in the load data being used. DO NOT EXCEED SAAMI MAX COL SPECS.
For SAAMI MAX COL specs please click HERE.
Here are websites with load data information:
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/
http://www.alliantpowder.com/ "

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-38-357-158gr-rn/
In addition, Hodgdon's Reloading Datacenter includes MANY loads specifically using Berrys bullets.
https://hodgdonreloading.com/rldc/
 
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