One more thing about Glock's tracing scheme

Will Beararms

New member
I have been guilty of posting too much and reading too little on this forum and as such, I took a leave of absence. This topic may be better suited on another part of TFL but I truly believe it will be more effective here since many who read this section are in the process of making lawful purchases of new handguns from FFL holders. Please forgive the length and hear me out. This is in no way an attack on the quality of the Glock pistol but I cannot remain silent on this timely issue.

Word on the street is that Glock will soon begin to manufacture all 9mm pistols so that each weapon will mark shell casings in a distinctive manner. This will initiate a pilot program with the Feds to establish a national data base for said pistols "to aid in the prevention and prosecution of handgun-related crimes". Simply put, this assumes that the law abiding citizen is guilty until proven innocent.To the dismay of many politicians, we are still innocent until proven guilty in America-------for the time being.

Paul Januzzo of Glock has postured in public to the effect that this program will not interfere with the rights of the law-abiding. This is the same gentleman who has met behind closed doors with the current administration months ago independent of the rest of the Industry. With all due repsect, it is time that all of us wake up and realize just how dangerous this is for our freedoms. Gaston Glock lives in a socialist country. He could care less about the Second Amendment and quite frankly, he may not even see the need for it. Glock is in the business of making a profit in the most economical manner possible. They would love nothing more than to drive out all competitors in the police and military markets by establishing a bore identification system that only they could competitively utilize. I know how these situations evolve. I deal with them on a day-to-day basis. At the very least, their market position could force all other leading Pistol manufacturers to follow suit whether they want to or not just to survive.

I don't care how good Glocks are, if this goes through, we will either refuse to buy their products and send a clear and decisive message to the Industry or continue to give up more liberty in the name of security. Those who are willing to do so,deserve neither. Bear in mind that the public consumer is the sole basis for all profit margins in the Firearms Industry. They merely pay the help and keep the lights turned on with the $275.00 per unit big order sales to Police Departments,Government Agencies and DOD ccontracts. We are the ones who shell out $500.00 and more for the over-the-counter legal transactions allowing the Handgun producer to allocate extra funds for research and new investments in plant and equipment.

In our society, as sad as it may be, the wallet does the talking. We must be prepared to vote with our dollars if the need arises.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."


[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited December 27, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited December 28, 1999).]
 
I think I'll just wait until this rumor is confirmed, if it ever is, before I criticize Glock, Inc. After all, "word on the street" has also been that Glock will cease all non-military, police sales - in which case, a boycott won't really be necessary.
 
I just read this in a reputable gun magazine but I forget which one. When I go through my stack I'll reply with the article.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
JHS, there are some neat rounds that leave no marks because they "frag" so well and firing pin marks are not that reliable I understand, course I'm no expert.
 
How is this a bad thing?? There is ABSOLUTELY nothing to be concerned about unless you use the weapon in a shooting and then flee the scene. The cases could then be used to prove it was that gun that the cases came from. Any law abiding gun owner who uses his weapon in self defense will remain at the scene as required, and so such markings on the cases will not be an issue.
Further, one possible reason for Glock to mark their barrels in such a fashion is the unique barrel construction of their pistols. While ordinary barrels rifeling is button-cut or otherwise machined in, Glocks are hammer-forged on a mandrel. This results in exceptionaly uniform barrels that leave no distinguishing marks on cases or bullets, making it difficult to determine which weapon fired the round (whereas no two machine rifeled barrels are the same, thus giving each gun a "fingerprint" of sorts which will show up on cases and fired bullets). Some police departments have become concerned with issuing Glocks to their officers and even removed Glocks from their lists of approved duty weapons because they cannot determine which officers weapon fired which rounds. Imagine a officer involved shooting situation where 5 officers all carying issue G 21's fire a total of 50 rounds. If there are no distinguishing marks there is no way for forensics to determine who shot what. This may well be the driving force behind the marking of their barrels. I, for one, will continue to buy Glocks, marked or not as I believe I have nothing to fear from it. Now, if I'm wrong (it's been known to happen), and this is some insidious from of gun control (and I don't see how it could be, they don't need to do crap like this they just ban 'em "for the children"--barf) I'd be interested to know how it works as such.

P.S. this is not a flame, just an alternate view.
 
"ID card please. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. Pursuant to the Student safety act of 2010, all handguns are illegal except for LEO and Mil Spec use. We have recovered shell casings bearing identification marks from a pistol you purchsed in 2001 that was not turned in during the grace period. Please grab your coat and come with me. If you choose to resist, an extraction team will be hear in 20 minutes to assist you."

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
How is this a bad thing??

It only works if they start marking each gun...and register who it's sold to...and require that every subsequent transaction be registered...and all that data is put in a national database...which lists all the guns you own...which violates law and reason. Nearly all governments that require universal gun registration end up confiscating the guns...and shell "fingerprinting" requires registration for any hope of being useful.

The "fingerprinting" process requires a great deal of information and work...which is easily frustrated. Perps will quickly learn to swap barrels (or whatever the marking component is), and law-abiding "don't tread on me" folk will take sudden interest in aftermarket improvements (i.e. new barrels, etc.).

It's too much work and valuable info that has too low a payoff, is too easily circumvented, and is too tempting to abuse for oppression of innocents.
 
You're worried about shell case markings? - I saw a program on TV that said that whenever a 911 call is placed in Los Angeles, the screen reveals the type and number of guns at that address - "for the safety of the responding officers." The fellow in Dallas that was plastered on tv as a "potential" terrorist had an "arsenal" of guns - 4 or 5 rifles and 3 or 4 pistols. He had "bomb making components" which amounted to 50 pounds of ammonium nitrate and Books - yes Books that described how to make bombs.
I have a garden (and fertilizer) and I have a pamphlet describing how to make firecrackers. With this as a definition of a terrorist with an "arsenal" - how many law abiding US citizens are already "potential terrorists" with arsenals? The fellow was shown on TV last night - he was charged with theft of 50 or 60 bottles of in-flight booze and running a stop sign. Thank goodness this is still the land of freedom.
 
How hard would it be to switch barrels and defeat this scheme? It seems to me that the new system wouldn't be foolproof for this and other reasons. Besides, if I were a BG this new system would encourage me to use a revolver.
 
The dude also lives in an apartment and
had detonator cord. We should be
hesitant into rushing to support this guy
just because it had guns.

One scheme is also to microengrave an ID
on the firing pin that will be whapped into
the primer.

Also, modern tech can match firing pin marks
per se - so a barrel change won't do it.
 
CT, they already register each gun you buy. What do you think the background checks and that little sheet of paper you fill out is for??

As for the other, if it comes to pass that they finger print the shell casings of eash pistol, you'd better make damn sure you picked up all your brass at the shooting range. If you left one behind, I might pick it up, kill some one
w/ the same caliber, get my brass and leave yours. Just a thought.

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RKBA
www.southernparty.org
 
If I am not mistaken, they can already match empty cases to a particular gun, by the firing pin mark, breech face, extractor and/or ejector. They have had this capability for quite some time, just like matching the marks on a fired bullet to a gun.
Glock is taking this a step further, and giving samples of fired cases with serial numbers of the gun that fired it to the feds BEFORE the sale of the gun.
It dosen't take a nuclear scientist to figure out where this will lead. To make this system even slightly effective, we will need REGISTRATION, and it will be at the federal level. We all know what comes next...
 
longhair -
Obviously NICS does registration for retail purchases; I was referring to an excuse for expanding registration to cover all gun transactions.

others-
This fingerprinting thing again points to the problem of focusing on the inanimate object instead of the user. Should it become an official requirement (or even be openly suggested), I predict:
- A rush to buy "unprinted" guns while still available
- A dramatic growth in interest in specialty parts, to replace the "marked" parts with (barrel, firing pin, etc.)
- A sudden common practice of "barrel swapping" (or other appropriate parts)
- Occurrences (few, perhaps) of "brass planting" by criminals
- A criminal preference for revolvers (no scattered brass)
- An attack on revolvers as a "criminals' gun of choice"
- Further oppression of gun owners ("gee, look at all this work we have to do to track markings with little payoff, it's just not worth the freedom...")
 
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