on factory ammuntion for carry

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Bezoar

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Its always been said that you NEEd to carry factory loads for self defense. Otherwise you have no way to prove that the shooting happened at the range you said it did based upon powder burns.

ie "38 special can ONLY make a 4 inch powder burn at 12 inches, not 15...."


Now looking at ammunition in the last few days, alot of companies like buffalo bore and double tap and i believe corbon are putting out disclaimers that although you are buying a box of 38 special +p, the head stamps arent gaurunteed to be the same brand or caliber, ie your 158 grain lswhp can be in +p or non +p cases,

How is that going to make prooving that you used factory ammunition easier when in court?

"but your honor we all know that ammunition companies are always making 38+p loads in non plus p marked cases.."
 
Bezoar said:
Its always been said that you NEEd to carry factory loads for self defense. Otherwise you have no way to prove that the shooting happened at the range you said it did based upon powder burns.

ie "38 special can ONLY make a 4 inch powder burn at 12 inches, not 15...."


Now looking at ammunition in the last few days, alot of companies like buffalo bore and double tap and i believe corbon are putting out disclaimers that although you are buying a box of 38 special +p, the head stamps arent gaurunteed to be the same brand or caliber, ie your 158 grain lswhp can be in +p or non +p cases,

How is that going to make proving that you used factory ammunition easier when in court?

"but your honor we all know that ammunition companies are always making 38+p loads in non plus p marked cases.."
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I know companies like Cor-Bon, Double Tap, and Buffalo Bore have solid reputations, but personally a disclaimer like you mentioned would make me uncomfortable to carry that ammo. If I am paying for premium ammo, I at least want consistancy- including the brass. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Which is why I typically carry Hornady or Federal ammo in my carry guns.
 
Bezoar said:
Now looking at ammunition in the last few days, alot of companies like buffalo bore and double tap and i believe corbon are putting out disclaimers that although you are buying a box of 38 special +p, the head stamps arent gaurunteed to be the same brand or caliber, ie your 158 grain lswhp can be in +p or non +p cases,
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How many is "a lot" of companies, and exactly which companies are they?

The advice to carry "factory" ammunition for self-defense is, as you have suggested, based at least in part on the fact that a ballistics lab can compare gunshot residue from a crime scene with gunshot residue from samples of the same ammunition fired in a laboratory and compare results. This is because factory ammunition is considered to be uniform in performance.

However, there are some companies who sell enough ammunition that they probably qualify as commercial sources, but they aren't producing first-run ammunition. I don't recall the brand, but I have a few boxes of .45 ACP LSWC target ammo that were purchased from a large, on-line ammo vendor. The brass is all mixed headstamps. The company that produces this stuff is what I would classify as a "commercial reloader." That's a different animal from a "factory," where all components are new including the brass.

Bottom line, IMHO -- don't carry commercial reload ammo for self defense. Carry new production, "factory" ammo.
 
I assume you are speaking to disclaimers like this one?:

IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT THE HEADSTAMP ON THIS BRASS: Due to limited supplies of brass, Buffalo Bore has begun loading +P and +P+ ammunition in brass that may not be indicated as such on the headstamp. Example: 9mm Luger +P+ ammunition may be designated as 9mm Luger +P or simply 9mm Luger on the headstamp.

The way it has been explained (ad nauseam) on gun forums, is that you load your mags/cylinder, and keep the rest of the factory box in a safe place so you can give it to the police when/if there is ever a question over a defence shooting...

I don't see where the headstamp will make any difference when the ammo you turn over is test fired...
 
Bezoar said:
but im not talking about commercial reloading, actual factory stuff.
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Sorry, but if the stuff comes out of the box with mixed headstamps, I don't consider it "factory" ammunition, I consider it to be commercial reloads. I suppose the real defining factor would be whether the brass is new production or once-fired, but good luck getting some companies to tell you the truth about that.
 
if you buy it in a box from say cabellas its "legally" factory ammunition and you didnt handload any super duper special thug killing load.

but mix head stamps that you undoubtedly handloaded unless you have a box of each head stamp.

ie a case stamped remington peters 38 +p better be from a box in your closet.
 
Bezoar said:
if you buy it in a box from say cabellas its "legally" factory ammunition and you didnt handload any super duper special thug killing load.

but mix head stamps that you undoubtedly handloaded unless you have a box of each head stamp.
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Fine.

I'm not here to argue with you. You asked a question ... I'm offering my personal view on an answer. I understand the issue involved with carrying handloaded ammunition for self defense. I understand the potential problems with trying to use evidence regarding handloads in your defense.

I bought my mixed headstamp LSWC ammunition from The Sportsmans Guide Company, which is certainly a large-scale vendor of commercial ammunition. It comes in a manufacturer's box and it has a brand name on it. Sure, it's "factory" ammo in that it was assembled in a commercial establishment (a "factory") that deals only in producing ammo for resale.

But the company is a large-scale commercial reloader. They are using once-fired brass, not new brass, and that's why the stuff has mixed headstamps. So suppose I use it for self defense. I fire three shots, and there are five unfired cartridges left in my pistol. The three fired shots are all different brass, and the five cartridges left in the gun are mixed.

How can any court KNOW that all eight cartridges were the commercial ammo and not some stuff I threw together? I have three more, unopened boxes of the stuff at home. Those boxes also have mixed headstamps. That doesn't help. There is still no way a judge could possibly know if the mixed headstamp ammo in my gun came from this commercial reloader or if it was a batch I loaded myself.

Which tells me that it would be unwise to carry "factory" ammo with mixed headstamps. So I won't. You, of course, are free to carry whatever you choose.
 
I'm totally shocked. Why the (insert expletive here) would you even consider paying that kind of money for ammo with mixed head stamps!?!??

I'm mostly a rifle shooter, but for my target ammo I won't even load brass of different lot numbers in the same batch (same headstamp goes without saying) Quality ammunition is all about consistancy!!!
 
Bezoar said:
if you buy it in a box from say cabellas its "legally" factory ammunition and you didnt handload any super duper special thug killing load.
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The term "factory" in common speech regarding ammo is generally short for "factory new," and is the use in which Aguila is referring to. When you purchase from certain companies, they sell what is called Factory Remanufactured ammo- they use new components with used brass. I have used this kind of ammo before, and the brass headstamps were all over the place- Federal, Remington, etc.

To me, as long as the headstamps are the same brand (i.e. all Federal or all Winchester), I would be ok with using that as defensive ammo. Even if, as in disclaimer from BUffalo Bore that Salmoneye shared, it was all the same brand but had some +p, some +p+, I wouldn't be too concerned. When I start seeing mixed brands of headstamps, I shy away for defensive use. I don't mind shooting them, but not when all the chips are on the line...
 
My self defense load

For my concealed carry Glock is Speer Gold Dot 147 gr. I figure if it's a "good shoot" and I'm still alive and well I'll let the chips fall where they may. Prosecutors can come up with all kinds of stuff. That's why I'm glad I live in a VERY conservative state.

My rules,1 make sure it is a "good shooting" (There is an oxymoron if ever I heard one)

2 Then be first to call 911. Don't talk to cops beyond a very brief cursory description. NO DETAILS.

3 Go home or jail (might not be your call) and write out a very clear explanation of events.

4 Call my atty and go over it with him.

5 Give written copy to cops.

6 whenever asked for details ONLY repeat what is on paper and reply "I cannot recall" to anything else.

After that I'm not worried about what some zany prosecutor does, that is out of my control and I think we can make ourselves a bit crazy by worrying about stuff like size of powder burn etc.

I made my "rules of engagement after spending some money with an experienced atty. and listening to a law professor followed by a retiring cop about what to say to cops (pretty near nothing) on you tube. Interesting stuff.
 
I have heard this for a long time, my answer to this hypothetical problem was to test and document my ammo at a level that would allow me to refute any incorrect statements about my ammunition with scientific data and test results. and having more of it to make available for testing by an independent lab of my choosing should the need arise.

I carry my own ammunition, it's all new components. It's not more or less powerful than "factory" ammunition, but highly accurate in my carry piece.

As I have said in other treads, If we are going to worry about this, then you should also be cautious of using ammunition with "Extreme Terminal Performance" bullets. Could not the choice of store bought "Hollow Point" ammunition be used against you by a Zealot prosecutor? What about a "factory" JHP defense load with +P designation, why did you feel the need to purchase +P ammunition? There is just no place to stop on this subject.
 
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iraiam said:
I have heard this for a long time, my answer to this hypothetical problem was to test and document my ammo at a level that would allow me to refute any incorrect statements about my ammunition with scientific data and test results. and having more of it to make available for testing by an independent lab of my choosing should the need arise.
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Our own moderator, Frank Ettin, has written extensively on why this is not likely to succeed if you actually find yourself charged in court. I don't have the link to a very detailed post he made some time ago abut admissibility of evidence, but the bottom line is that despite your stockpile of "well documented" ammunition, it (the ammo), your notes, and any "scientific" analyses based on those would likely not be admissible as evidence in your trial.

We each make our own choices and pick our own battles. My choice is to carry name-brand, factory ammunition so I don't have to worry about trying to defend my use of handloads. Your mileage may vary.

Post #7 & #13 & #25

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365747




http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261157

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283823
 
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iraiam said:
I have heard this for a long time, my answer to this hypothetical problem was to test and document my ammo at a level that would allow me to refute any incorrect statements about my ammunition with scientific data and test results. and having more of it to make available for testing by an independent lab of my choosing should the need arise.
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You hope. There are some basic evidentiary problems here that you may not have considered, and which you may not be able to overcome.

iraiam said:
I carry my own ammunition, it's all new components. It's not more or less powerful than "factory" ammunition, but highly accurate in my carry piece.

As I have said in other treads, If we are going to worry about this, then you should also be cautious of using ammunition with "Extreme Terminal Performance" bullets. Could not the choice of store bought "Hollow Point" ammunition be used against you by a Zealot prosecutor? What about a "factory" JHP defense load with +P designation, why did you feel the need to purchase +P ammunition? There is just no place to stop on this subject.
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That's certainly your decision to make. However, the problems presented by using handloads are different from the problems presented by choosing "Extreme Terminal Performance" bullets (or some other equally menacing-souonding name). The former is an evidentiary problem; the latter is a jury perception problem.

If we want to go down this path again (I really don't, but I will if I have to), please start by reading some of the threads in An Archive Regarding Reloads and Self-Defense.
 
If we want to go down this path again (I really don't, but I will if I have to)
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Seems this path has been taken countless numbers of times in countless numbers of gun forums since the inception of the internet. Proponents of handloaded ammo claim the nay-sayers have yet to come up with one legitimate case where the use of reloads was even a minute factor that a civilain SD shoot was deemed "not justified". Those against handloads give cases of suicide/murder and cop shootings along with could happen/might happen in the right scenario, with the right DA. That said, after the the thousands of posts relating to the subject over the years, how folks feel has changed little. There are still two sides to the coin, with no difinitive answer. IMHO, There is really no legitimate reason to continue to go down the path that has been beaten to death. It still always ends up in the same place.

Use what shoots the best outta your gun, what you are most proficient with, most confortable with and have the most confidence with, as long as it's legal. Your life and the lives of your loved ones is what's important.
 
As Spats mentioned, we have a sticky devoted to this very matter. Massad Ayoob also wrote here about it.

Without new or novel information, there's really no need to go down that road yet again.
 
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