Old civil war military springfield

[CPTLOU]

I have this old Springfield Model 1865 sitting around for some time. My pop purchased it in the early 1960s at an Estate sale ( looking for furniture, but ended up with this, and newly-wedded mom was not very happy), near downtown Fredericksburg, VA.
I understand the family was the estate of a J.M Barton ( or Burton I am not sure), who's father had been a prisoner guard in the CSA somewhere in VA from was he was told. Kind of interesting I thought.

I like it a lot, but my personal interest is WW1.

I have read and heard all the virtual bodyslams when somebody tries to sell an item as "Civil War". What exactly would "qualify it?..?

From what I have been told, this would be a Federal US Springfield Model 1865, reconfigured after the war for militia use, and changed to "1st ( or 2nd i forgot) Allin / Allen (?) conversion. Does that sound right?

 

[Buzzcook]

That sure looks like an 1865 conversion to me.

There are a lot of fake civil war rifles on the market. It helps if you have some provenance showing where the rifle comes from. A receipt from the estate sale would be nice.
Another option is a certificate of authenticity.

Hopefully you won't get slammed too bad.

 

[csmsss]

The pictures are not good enough to make any definitive declarations about your rifle. Lots of 1861 Springfields have been altered to resemble the 1865 conversions, and your best bet is to take yours to an expert who can tell you for certain.

One other thing - I don't believe very many of these rifles ever saw service in the Civil War - and it would be exceptional that a Confederate soldier would have come into possession of one and actually used it, since ammo would have been impossible to come by.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"and it would be exceptional that a Confederate soldier would have come into possession of one and actually used it, since ammo would have been impossible to come by."

I'm assuming you mean the Allin conversion.

As far as I know, NO Allin conversions were made (other than possible tool room samples) prior to the end of the war, and certainly none saw service during the Civil War.

First-model Allins were issued in 1866, and were soon withdrawn from service due to a number of problems.

If this is a first model Allin conversion it has some collector's value. Other modifications to the rifle, which could have been made before or after the conversion, are a wildcard as to whether they increase or decrease the value.

What caliber is your gun?

If it's still the original .58 caliber, chances are good it's a first Allin. If it's been sleeved down to .50 caliber, it's a second Allin.

I don't believe many first model Allin conversions (I believe they were all 58 caliber rimfire) survived, as many were either scrapped or converted to second models.

The second modes were fairly widely issued and figured in a number of battles against the Plains indians. Many were, in 1870, packed up and shipped to France and were used in the Franco Prussian War.

 

[jrothWA]

What id the DATE on the trapdoor?

a 1865 is the Allin first edition, using a bored-out barrel with a new liner for the 50-70 RIMFIRE cartridge.


The 1866 edition is the second model with new made barrel.

After that, the true 45-70 trapdoor decended.


Suggest contacting the "The Horse soldier" in Gettysburg, Ps., as they seem to be very knowledgeable of CW firearms. I have no business connection or dealt with them. Likely more in your area.


Post close-ups of the action top and both sides.

As the 1st & 2nd used the 1863's as basis for conversion.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"a 1865 is the Allin first edition, using a bored-out barrel with a new liner for the 50-70 RIMFIRE cartridge."

No, I don't think that's correct.

Most, if not all, first model Allins were chambered for the .58 Miller/Allin cartridge, a rimfire that used the original Springfield barrel without modification other than cutting the breech.

Third paragraph here confirms this:

http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum...-springfield-allin-conversion-model-1866.aspx

The absolute tell that they are inside centerfire primed using the Benet system is the crimp about 1/4" above the rim on the case body. This crimp held the anvil in place inside the case body.

The Model 1868 used a newly manufactured .50 caliber barrel because the Model 1866's bored out and relined barrel tended to separate under repeated firing.

Finally, there was no .50-70 rimfire cartridge of which I'm aware. The .50-70 was purpose-designed as a centerfire because, among other things, the rimfire ignition on the .58 Miller/Allin cartridge proved to be too unreliable.

Early .50-70 cartridges, as well as early .45-70 cartridges (along with early .45 Colt and .45 Smith & Wesson cartridges), largely used the Benet inside centerfire priming system because the cases were still largely made from drawn copper, and the copper was too soft to reliably support a punched through centerfire primer.

Because of the internal structure, these cases APPEAR to be rimfires, but they are actually centerfires.

This is a picture of two Benet inside-primed centerfire cartridges, both made at US Government arsenals. The one on the left is a .45 Smith & Wesson cartridge, and the one on the right is a .47-70.

It wasn't until about 1875, when deep drawing of brass finally became possible, that the shift to brass cases and "modern" centerfire priming started.