Ok, serious legal question.

Nightflurry

Inactive
I visit Chicago fairly often and have a lot of friends there. One of them, Mike, was assaulted and mugged last night at knifepoint. Mike is VERY good with a pistol, there's no doubt at all in my mind that if he had one he would've been able to successfully employ it to either hold the attacker at bay or, if worst came to worst, used force against force.

However, being that it is Chicago he cannot carry a weapon on him. I'm a criminal justice student so I intend to ask a few professors about it, but I also want the opinion here. Can Mike sue the city of Chicago for endangering his public safety? He's no yahoo who's more likely to get himself hurt, he's skilled enough with the weapon.

Thoughts?
 
Nope - he can't sue. The Supreme Court has handed down an edict that counties, municipalities and all police forces are under no legal obligation to protect the individual (apparently they are only obligated to protect politicians and judges). We are on our own - even when and where it is "unlawful" to have the means (a gun) to defend your life.

Nice, huh?:barf:
 
Doubt it. Many cases have shown that the police are not responsible for protecting you http://www.jpfo.org/Dial911.htm Logic would say that if you don't allow people to defend themselves then you must protect them but that's not the way it works. For the most part local goverments only care about you when it's time to pay taxes and vote.
 
Yes, sadly I understand that they have no obligation to protect us. What I am wondering is if he can get them not on that, but by claiming they activly endangered him. It's a long shot.. but I thought it was worth looking into.
 
nightflurry,
I don't suspect that you'll find a lawyer willing to take it up. If only the ACLU protected in the 2nd....
 
Yes, he can sue - but it won't get far and he'll have wasted time/effort and probably money. Can he legally carry a baseball bat in Chicago?
 
If only the ACLU protected in the 2nd....

Ain't that the truth. You got a civil rights issue they're the people to go to often.. unless it involves guns. Never got that, ah well.

This is a lost cause I know, thanks though guys.
 
I was born and raised in the City of Chicago.

I grew up during the time when the carrying of handguns was made illegal. Yes, you could, at one time, get a permit to carry.

I am very aware of the fact that the carrying of handguns in the City of Chicago is illegal, and will net you jail time.

The last two times I visited my sister who still lives in the City of Chicago (5500 block of Sheridan Ave), I had a Glock 27 in my pocket at all times.

I am not advocating the breaking or flounting of ANY law of ANY municipality.

You make your decision and take your chances.
 
As long as there is a "rational basis" between what the state / city is attempting to accomplish (protecting the citizens) and the means they use to do it (disarming everyone), the courts will not find their method objectionable.

In any case, you run into the doctrine of "sovereign immunity" originally stemming from the doctrine of "you can't use the king because he can (by definition) do no wrong," but essentially winding up meaning, "we, the government, find it inconvenient to be sued, and we operate the courts, so you can only sue us if we explicitly decide to allow you to by law."

And here you probably thought we fought a revolution to get away from that sort of thinking. <snort>

The doctrine is still called "sovereign immunity," BTW.

Here's a couple of links on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity
http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/usdc/bnkrptcy/briefs/bnk21.htm

Dex
firedevil_smiley.gif
 
Suing a city

Although I'm not certain because this isn't my legal domain, my hunch is that the city would be protected under sovereign immunity, which is a doctrine precluding the institution of a suit against the sovereign [government] without its consent. Though commonly believed to be rooted in English law, it is actually rooted in the inherent nature of power and the ability of those who hold power to shield themselves.

In England it was predicated on the concept that "the sovereign can do no wrong", a concept developed and enforced by - guess who? However, since the American revolution explictedly rejected this interesting idea, the American rulers had to come up with another rationale to protect their power. One they came up with is that the "sovereign is exempt from suit [on the] practical ground that there can be no legal right against the authority that makes the law on which the right depends." 205 U.S. 349, 353.

"tatutes waiving the sovereign immunity of the United States must be`construed strictly in favor of the sovereign." McMahon v. United States, 342 U.S. 25, 27 (1951).

11 U.S.C. S 106, "Waiver of Sovereign Immunity," provides:

(a) A governmental unit is deemed to have waived sovereign immunity with respect to any claim against such governmental unit that is property of the estate and that arose out of the same transaction or occurrence out of which such governmental unit's claim arose.

The interest served by federal sovereign immunity (the United States' freedom from paying damages without Congressional consent)

Federal sovereign immunity is readily distinguishable from the states' immunity under the Eleventh Amendment and foreign governments' immunity under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act. The latter two doctrines allow one sovereign entity the right to avoid, altogether, being subjected to litigation in another sovereign's courts. Pullman Constr., 23 F.3d at 1169. Similar sovereignty concerns are not implicated by the maintenance of suit against the United States in federal court. Federal sovereign immunity has had such broad exceptions carved out of it that, as Pullman Construction concluded, "Congress, on behalf of the United States, has surrendered any comparable right not to be a litigant in its own courts." Id. In the present day, federal sovereign immunity serves merely to channel litigation into the appropriate avenue for redress, ensuring that "No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law." Pullman Constr. at 1168 (quoting Art. I, section 9, cl. 7).

Federal sovereign immunity is a defense to liability rather than a right to be free from trial.

The Supreme Court has ruled that in a case involving the government's sovereign immunity the statute in question must be strictly construed in favor of the sovereign and may not be enlarged beyond the waiver its language expressly requires. See United States v. Nordic Village, Inc., 503 U.S. 30, 33-35 (1992).

Each state and city has it's own laws and immunity statutes. I'm not familiar with Illinois nor Chicago.

On another note, while it may be a waste of time and money, it may be worth suing on the grounds that the state has stripped him of his FEDERAL Constitutional rights to keep and bear arms and attempt to gain some national exposure. Where state and federal laws conflict, federal laws generally preempt state laws. I believe it's the "Doctrine of Supremecy" which states that where Federal laws and state laws conflict, Federal laws preempt. States can only GIVE citizens MORE rights, but cannot take Federal rights away. The real problem is that there is no federal right to carry a concealed weapon, that law is reserved to the states individually.

However, it would be an interesting suit. I considered that exact same thing in Colorado before we were a shall issue state, but I would not have had standing to sue (you have to have a personal reason to sue like being harmed, not the anticipation of being harmed) because I had not been robbed. Here, your friend has standing to sue. Maybe he can find a good pro-gun Illinois lawyer to do it pro bono in hopes of national attention and changing the laws.
 
You cant carry bats either, thats why,when I last checked,gang members were walking around with golf clubs...
 
I grew up during the time when the carrying of handguns was made illegal. Yes, you could, at one time, get a permit to carry.

Uhmm... I am confused ( nothing new I assure your ). Since Illinois has no concealed carry for the great unwashed masses ( my understanding is LEO, Armed Security and some politicians ( Chicago Alderman :barf: ) were the only ones allowed to CCW in Illinois.

How long ago was this ?:confused:

NukemJim
 
Can Mike sue the city of Chicago for endangering his public safety?

Common sense says, yes... :rolleyes:

But, I'd bet there's some kind of ordinance, or rule of law, that says you have to have their permission to sue them! :mad:

If Mike does file a suit, I will donate to his court costs :cool:
 
A few words to LIVE by.

First rule: It is better to pay the lawyer than the undertaker.
Second rule: It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

If they are not willing to protect me and mine, then I am obligated to do so myself. I have won some of these legal battles, and I have lost some. However, I have never lost the moral battles that led to those legal battles.
 
Well I don't think he's going to pursue anything. He has a hell of a lot on his plate right now so it's not going to go anywhere. I suppose I can respect that even if I would do differently.

Interesting debate though.
 
Some flaws in the government's logic (What a SURPRISE!)

Leadcounsel rightly quotes:
" "sovereign is exempt from suit [on the] practical ground that there can be no legal right against the authority that makes the law on which the right depends." 205 U.S. 349, 353."

This is indeed the mechanism by which the government avoids taking financial responsibility for failing to do the duties it seems to CLAIM to have the ability to do (such as protecting its citizens from harm by legislating violence out of existence).

There is a TREMENDOUS flaw, however.

We, as sovreign individuals, do not derive our rights from the government, the law, or any other authority, but rather, we have inalienable rights bestowed upon us by our creator which include life (and the right to protect that life), liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Basically, the government is acting like the monarchy we fought a revolution to defy and expel from our shores.

It's about time for round two, I suspect.

Just a thought.

Vanguard.45
 
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