Observations from loading 9mm on Dillon vs. Lee dies

M

muncie21

New member
I'm fairly new to reloading having only loaded several 1000 rounds of 9mm on my Dillon 650. Those rounds were all reloaded using Lee sizing, seating and FCD dies. The only Dillon die was the powder/case expander die.

Today I loaded a few hundred 9mm using a second toolhead, setup with all Dillon dies. Here are some general observations:
  • There's definitely less brass 'dust' on the shell plate when using the Dillon dies
  • The Dillon dies left the loaded rounds with more of a 'coke' bottle look/shape, even after multiple adjustments
  • Flat nose rounds seating depth was more consistent with Dillon seating die, when using the SWC side of the die insert (Lee only has RN insert)
  • Micro adjustment knobs on the Lee seating and FCD dies was very convenient

When setting up a new configuration, I measure, case gauge and plunk/spin each round to get an idea of my manufacturing variation. I noticed with the Dillon dies I had more failures of either the case gauge or plunk/spin. Not sure if this is a setup issue, die variation or if the Lee FCD 'masked' setup errors on the Lee set. However, the cartridges that were loaded with the Dillon dies and failed either the case gauge or plunk/spin checks were run through the Lee FCD afterwards, 90% of them passed these tests after going through the Lee FCD

Overall the differences were not great enough for me to choose one over the other yet. I'm going to run the Dillons for a bit longer to get more used to the adjustments before rendering a verdict.
 
I've been using Lee dies since day one. When I purchased my Dillon 550 didn't see the need to spend the extra bucks for Dillon dies. No problems and you may want to check concentricity on the rounds that fail the plunk test. Just a thought
 
Most people will tell you any brand of dies are as good as the other.

Somewhere on that line I am as well.

However I use preferebly Hornady and for revolver have one RCBS taper crimp die set (38 spl/357 mag).

For all cartridges I recommend TAPER CRIMP dies only (do not bother with roll crimping).
 
I bought a new Dillion 550B last year and Dillion Dies also . I load 44 Mag 5/6 hundred a month . The Dillion Dies are slowly being replaced with my old lee dies . The Dillion dies just do not work as well ok but not as well . The first Dillion die to go was the sizing die a real pain the bullet seating die is ok but not near as easy to set up . Over overall a waste off money .
 
Different dies do have different tolerance. I started with Lee dies for .38, 9, 40, 45, but most have been replaced or supplemented with used RCBS dies purchased on EBay.

The sizing dies can vary by how much they actually size the case by a few .001’s. For example my Lee 38 Special dies resized the cases to .371 and my RCBS resizes the cases .375. .375 is good enough, doesn’t work the brass as much, doesn’t swage down the oversized lead bullets I use, and the brass fits into the chamber with a better fit. My Lee 9mm resizes to .378 which is perfect for me and 9mm.

I hate the Lee powder through expander dies and how they float in the die causing an abrupt jerk to get the case loose. I have switched all my expander dies to RCBS or Lyman M dies.

The Lee seating dies are a good die for just about any bullet type. The Lee seating stem allows you to seat everything from RN, SWC’s, to full wadcutters. The RCBS seating stems can be much more specific i.e. they have SWC seating stems which works great for SWC bullets, but will leave a ring around a RN bullet. The problem with Lee is that the really loose tolerances on the die threads allow the seating stem to drift out over time. I use 3 different seating dies depending on the type of bullet I’m using – 1 Lee and 2 RCBS.

All the companies dies will produce rounds that work. I have noticed the Lee dies typically resize the brass more than needed. This might help ensure the bullets will not set back and that they will chamber in any gun, but at the same time it produces that Coke bottle look and swages down your bullet as you seat it.

Most of my experiences are with handgun reloading so the rifle of this hobby could be completely contradictory to everything stated above.
 
Dillon sizing dies have a lot of radius at the mouth for easy self-centering of cases on the progressive shellplate. If you have cases expanded well back into this radius, they are not going to get fully sized and you may have gauge/plunk failures.
Lee and others have less radius.
If it is a very common problem, you can get a Lee "U" die or an EGW "U" die made for them by Lee - different spec than the one direct from Lee - that will size the brass smaller and further back.

I like the "coke bottle" effect, it shows me that the bullet is tight in the case and not subject to setback against the feed ramp. If I am loading short light hollowpoints, I will pre-process brass through the "U" die to be sure of a "coke bottle" profile.


The Dillon seating die, adjustable only by screwing the whole die in and out on loose coarse threads is a real drag. OK if you always load the same bullet, same OAL, but if you have different loads, it is slow to adjust. I have Hornady seaters with Microjust spindles, the setting recorded for each load.

Dillon taper crimp is fine. I have Lee CFC dies but I only use them to salvage rounds that fail the gauge.
Interestingly, .45s are usually oversize over the bullet, if a cast bullet is a bit large and the case neck a bit thick.
9mms are more often oversize back near the rim where that big radius sizing die did not touch. The CFC die leaves a bright ring where it contacts them.
 
just my 1.5 cents but I recently loaded 2000 rounds of .45 acp without die adjustment using dillon dies and about 1 out of 100 fails the plunk test. I can live with that. Sure 1 out of 300 would be better but ...
 
Personally I much prefer the Dillon to the Lee dies, though the seating adjustment is easier with the Lees.
Part of my preference though with the Dillons is ease of cleaning since I shoot only cast bullets.
 
The trick with Dillon dies is to recognize they are intended for a progressive press. The wider sizing die mouth radius Jim mentioned is intended to compensate for a moving shell plate having to be designed with more overall wiggle room around the cartridge. It prevents the fine shaving that produces the brass dust observed in the OP. The tighter sizing that increases the "coke bottle" look also described in the OP is done to be sure thin and springy, heavily worked brass sizes adequately to hold onto the bullet. In the past I've had R-P .45 Auto cases that were so thin at the mouth that, after the work-hardening done by reloading them twice, a standard carbide sizing die (Lyman, in my case) would not size them down enough to hold onto a bullet. Even my 0.001" oversized cast bullets would slip in and out of the "resized" case under just moderate finger pressure. This does not happen with the Dillon dies, as they squeeze the .45 Auto down more, more like a small base die. This way you don't have bullets coming loose in the middle of rapid production.

The failure to gauge or chamber is, as described, an issue with that large mouth radius. In particular, pistol cartridges for self-loaders with partially unsupported chambers will become "pregnant", and the bulge created that way won't always be adequately resized by the Dillon mouth radius. If you have a single-stage press, you can run the brass through the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die with the crimp ring removed before running them through the Dillon. That will correct the bulge as well as it would do when used to apply the crimp. The advantage to doing it beforehand on a single-stage press it that allows you to feel how hard the brass goes in, which will give you enough feel to identify and cull the extremely deformed brass, as some full-auto weapons, in particular, can create. If the brass was all fired new in your own gun, then there is no real advantage to the extra step, and just using this die for the final crimp does just as well.

You can also call Dillon and ask how if they have any special means of addressing the problem. They are going to have seen this before.
 
Guess which die made which cartridges....
IMG_5948_zpspb8gajmx.jpg
 
The top one and the third from the top look like my .45 Auto loads do off my Dillon dies. The greater taper in the 9 mm case really exaggerates that Coke bottle appearance as compared to mine, but the same mirroring of the bullet base location occurs on my .45's.

I called and asked Redding one time why they don't offer their two-ring dies for the 9. They said the taper is shaped into their standard carbide ring. That would certainly cut down on the extreme appearance in the photo.

BTW, when I first saw that mirrored bullet base in my Dillon loads, I also noted that it was often greater on one side of the case than the other. This turned out to be due to bullet tilt. I have a lathe, so I turned a new powder measure operating rod/drop tube with the Lyman M profile, and it virtually eliminated the tilt. There are still small differences due to uneven brass thickness, but the mirror bulges are all visible all the way around.
 
After chrono'ing my loads today (no functionality issues, or issues in general for that matter) I'm less concerned about appearance as long as they function as intended.

The two bullets in the picture are 124g and 135g which generally pass my case gauge and plunk/spin test when loaded on the Dillon dies. I'm having issues with 147g bullets failing one or both of these tests (~10-15% rate) with the full Dillon die set, so I'm going to use a Lee FCD to iron out the 'wrinkles'. Depending on results, I may go with a full set of Lee dies (minus the powder drop/expander) as the 147g bullet doesn't give me an issues when I use the other toolhead loaded with Lee dies.
 
I hate the Lee powder through expander dies and how they float in the die causing an abrupt jerk to get the case loose
Click to expand...

Didn't Lee once describe this as a feature that did the job of tapping the powder dispenser?
 
I too started out with Lee dies and switched to Dillon. I have a Dillon 550b press. I am not sure I can tell that much difference in the results between the Lee's and Dillon's. As several posters have mentioned, the seating adjustment is easier on the Lee dies. With the Dillon, you have to screw the entire die in our out. Dillon dies are easier to clean. I think I do prefer the separate seating die and crimp die of the Dillon as opposed to the factory crimp die of the Lee.
 
If you purchase the 4-die set from Lee, the seating and crimping die are separate. This is the configuration that I use, seat in one station and de-bell in the following station, with the Lee FCD.
 
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