NRA vs GOA - sending conflicting messages

sbryce

New member
Yesterday I sat in the Utah State Republican Party Convention. All day. A long day.

Our beloved governor (not), Mike Leavitt, has expressed a desire to oust guns from schools and churches--even those carried by CCW holders. I also understand he's banned carrying among state employees--but I need that verified.

In his campaign speech before fellow Republicans, he said that the NRA endorsed him.

Senator Orrin Hatch--chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, a very powerful position, answered GOA's candidate survey with lengthy explanations, 16 of 22 questions "mostly correctly," according to the GOA. Yet the NRA sent me (a delegate to the convention) several pieces of mail endorsing Hatch, including explaining his compromises.

I wanna know: WHAT GIVES!!!!!!?????? :mad: :mad:

(Remember, I'm new at all this--only been involved with this issue for about a year.)

Just how liberal is the NRA, anyway???!!! I don't understand their motives or strategy. :confused:

Can anyone shed some light on this?

BTW, Hatch squeaked through to a nomination with 61.51% of the delegate vote. If it had been under 60%, he would have had to go to a Republican primary. If the NRA had not endorsed him, I'm persuaded that he'd have lost that needed 2% or so. As a 24-year Senator, it would have been a real wake-up call to him. Hatch's main opponent is a constitutionalist and earned a 100% rating from GOA's survey.

Governor Leavitt DID have to go to a primary. {I'm dancing!!) I don't even know the guy I voted for, but it's apparent I wasn't the only "anyone-but-Leavitt" person there. Leavitt even got booed. 2 term incumbent.

Why did the NRA do what it did????

--Denise



[This message has been edited by sbryce (edited May 07, 2000).]
 
The real name of the NRA, in its political manifestation, is the National Republican Association. Its purpose is to feed on the engergy of concerne gun rights activists in order to elect Republicans to office, no matter what it takes.

The NRA will always support a gun-squishy GOP candidate over a solid-RKBA candidate when the squish is an incumbent, or if there is no incumbent, when the squish appears more "electable" in the eyes of the professional political elite.

The justification is always "Our guy may not be perfect, but he's gotta be better than the Democrat."

Basically this is a defeatist attitude which only ensures that the water won't come to boil so quickly that the frog figures out he's in trouble while he can still escape.

I have joined NRA because aside from politics, it does good work in promoting gun safety and the shooting sports. But my political money goes to GOA, SAF, COA and JPFO (and if I had more I'd send some to CCRKBA).

--The Beez
 
Thanks, Beez. That was kinda my guess, but, being new at this, am unsure of my evaluations.

Anyone else have a learned opinion?
 
sbyrce,

I don't entirely agree with The Beez. Up until just recently, the NRA has supported candidates from both the Democratic and Republican parties. It still supports Democrats, but with the Likes of Clinton if office, as one might expect, it has cut back on it's support for them.

As far as this Utah thing goes, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wields an enormous amount of power in that state. While the LDS Church and it's members are for the most part conservative, they did ban the carrying of firearms in their buildings not too long ago. That was a very ill-advised move on their part. Since then, they have had the mass shooting in the Family History Center in Salt Lake City.

I have no proof of this, but I think that the LDS Church may be pressuring the governor of Utah into supporting the ban on carrying in church. It doesn't matter how much clout the NRA has in Utah, the Church has more. That may explain things.

Joe

Who is himself a member of the LDS Church. :)

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http://second.amendment.homepage.com
 
nralife, I didn't know the LDS church banned the carrying of firearms in its buildings. Does this include wards? When did this ban take place? Where would I find documentation of this? Would it be mentioned in Ensign?

I know about the Geneological Library shooting--my husband was working at the Triad Center just down the block at the time. That was in our pre-RKBA days. Was one more event that moved us toward being passionately RKBA.

I understood that the security guard at the library wasn't even carrying. He didn't want to carry a (big, bad) gun, you see.

A concealed carry instructor told me that a lot of people who work at the Geneological Library got CCW's after the shooting. This instructor has made another claim that I'm doubting, and now I'm wondering about this claim about the library employees. I'd like documention on the self-imposed ban.

If the LDS ban in firearms extends to wards, would this lend to the governor's desire to ban firearms in churches and schools??--after all, a majority of the church buildings in Utah already have a self-imposed ban.

There's an iniative signature drive underway here to put on the ballot a ban on carrying in churches and schools. Please join with me in praying that they don't get enough signatures!

(Interesting side note: My husband and I are not LDS, have inquired of our pastor about his opinion regarding one of his congregation carrying, and he--an avid hunter, but who does not own a handgun--said he'd feel safer if someone did carry.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It doesn't matter how much clout the NRA has in Utah, the Church has more.[/quote]

Now THAT comment I'll agree with.

I appreciate your insight.

--Denise
 
sbryce,

The self-imposed ban on the carrying of firearms by the LDS Church came about almost two years ago and it does include the ward buildings as well. In fact, they probably have this whole policy to keep firearms out of the ward buildings in particular.

I have checked the archives of all the forums that might have had something about this ban and I can't find anything on them. It has just been too long ago to find anything. There are many LDS on these forums and they might have something that will help you. I can tell you this, "Kirby" wrote a column about this back then that was entitled "The One True Caliber." He is a bit of a liberal and he was all for the ban, so he was mocking LDS gun owners. "The One True Caliber" piece was a knock off of the "One True Church." I didn't find it very amusing. I tired to tell everyone about how stupid the ban was, because no one had ever been hurt by a gun in church to begin with. Kirby's articles can be found in either the Deseret News or the Salt Lake Tribune, I don't know which. You might be able to do a search of those paper's websites and find some good info.

Good luck,
Joe
 
Thanks, nralife. I'm still a little confused, though. "Kirby" here on TFL? Or "Kirby" in the Trib or DesNews?

Unfortunately, DesNews is charging for access to their papers older than 6 months. Hmmm, will look in the Trib. "One True Caliber" doesn't sound like a DesNews article! And I can see why you didn't find the title amusing as it relates to the LDS Church.

But my initial impression was that "The One True Caliber" would be a good title for some of our friends who are fanatic about .45's! :)

--Denise
 
sbryce,


Tribune Archive 1996
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GUNS INAPPROPRIATE IN CHURCH, ... 06/04/96

Publication: The Salt Lake Tribune
Types: Nation-World
Published: 06/04/96
Page: A1
Keywords: UT, Laws-Regulations, Weapons, Mormon Church, Social Issues

Guns Inappropriate In Church, LDS Say

LDS Church Wants No Guns in Pews
Byline: BY TONY SEMERAD THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
COPYRIGHT 1996, THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Monday that lethal weapons, even when carried legally, are not welcome in its church buildings.

``Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world,'' the brief statement said. ``The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate, except as required by officers of the law.''

About 70 percent of Utahns are Mormon. Over 17,000 ward houses and branch buildings are overseen by the LDS Church worldwide, with ``more than 1,000'' of those in Utah, church spokesman Don LeFevre said.

The gun-policy statement, issued in response to inquiries from The Salt Lake Tribune, is the first by a religious institution in Utah since renewed debate on guns erupted last month on Capitol Hill.

Leading education and public-safety officials are claiming that a 1995 change of Utah's concealed-weapons law may have limited the legal ability of schools, churches and private businesses to forbid weapons on their premises. They want state lawmakers to clarify the matter.

The very notion of guns in churches has caught many religious leaders off guard. There are no official policies in the Roman Catholic, Episcopal, Jewish or Greek Orthodox communities in Utah.

``If you feel you need to carry a gun to go to church, you need to reassess your attitude about going to church,'' Malin Foster, spokesman for the Episcopal diocese, said recently, echoing the sentiments of many other church officials.

LeFevre would not elaborate Monday on whether the LDS statement should be viewed as an outright prohibition on guns, or what steps might be taken, if any, against churchgoers who bring weapons onto church grounds.

A member of Utahns Against Gun Violence, which has supported past gun-control measures before the Legislature, called the LDS statement ``a pleasant development.''
``This is the kind of positive response one would expect from an ecclesiastical organization,'' group co-founder and Salt Lake lawyer Gary Sackett said. He added that he hoped it would prompt other churches to take similar stands, as well as spur political action on gun control.

``The church has major influence,'' Sackett said. ``It may be that this affirmative statement would prompt legislators to take a second look at what for some has been a rather rigid and narrow approach to violence.''
But Scott Engen, spokesman for the Utah Shooting Sports Council, an affiliate of the National Rifle Association, called the church statement ``difficult and disappointing'' and ``a policy tragedy.''
``Devoted members of the church who have chosen to take the responsibility for providing for their own safety lawfully and legally are forced by this church edict to choose between their adherence to church policy and their ability to provide for their lawful self-protection,'' Engen said.

Unfortunate though it may be, Engen has said, churches are subject to violent attacks along with the rest of society.

As a result, many LDS church members have availed themselves of a state-approved weapons permit, said Engen. ``Now they are being told apparently by the leadership of the church that they are somehow untrustworthy to engage in that protection while they are worshiping.''
Engen is among those pushing for a broad interpretation of Utah's concealed-weapons law, particularly of a 1995 clause specifying that concealed-weapons permit holders can carry their weapons ``without restriction.''
It is that clause that state Department of Public Safety Commissioner Doug Bodrero wants clarified, fearing that it has nullified existing bans on weapons in schools and eroded the ability of church and business leaders to keep their domains guns-free.

Utah has approximately 10,000 holders of concealed-weapons permits, up from 134 permit holders in 1991. Most of the new permits have been issued since state lawmakers voted in 1995 to make permits easier to obtain.

Though top LDS Church leaders have spoken out regularly against violence, they only began formulating an official statement on guns in churches in mid-May, after a Tribune inquiry and news reports about a May 15 legislative committee hearing on the issue.

Nearly three weeks in the making, the statement grew out of discussions by Elders Neal A. Maxwell, M. Russell Ballard, and Joseph B. Wirthlin, all of whom belong to the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.


© Copyright 1990-2000, The Salt Lake Tribune



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http://second.amendment.homepage.com
 
Tribune Archive 1996
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CHURCH'S WORD ON GUNS PACKS A ... 06/09/96

Publication: The Salt Lake Tribune
Types: Utah
Published: 06/09/96
Page: B1
Keywords: UT, Laws-Regulations, Weapons, Social Issues, Mormon Church
Church's Word On Guns Packs A Real Wallop
Gun Control: Church Has Hill's Ear


Byline: BY DAN HARRIE THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

The Mormon Church last week issued a simple statement opposing firearms in chapels that has hit Utah's Capitol Hill with the force of an earthquake. Gun politics have been jarred in a whole new direction.

Already, gun-control advocates are referring to the church statement as a likely ``watershed'' in the long-running debate over firearms rights and restrictions.

``From now on there's going to be greater sympathy shown to our side, not just in the Legislature, but in the population generally,'' predicts Steve Gunn, a Salt Lake City attorney and spokesman for Utahns Against Gun Violence.

The pro-gun lobby's chief Utah spokesman, meantime, acknowledges the political dynamics have shifted dramatically and suddenly, at least on the narrow issue of legal firearms in churches and schools.

``Obviously, the church swings a very long political stick in this state, and the line between church and state becomes very blurred,'' says Scott Engen, a leader of the Utah Shooting Sports Council (USSC).

After an unbroken string of legislative victories in recent years, the gun-rights lobby now is on the defensive and looking ahead to what could well be its first defeat in the 1997 Legislature.

In rapid-fire succession following the church statement, Gov. Mike Leavitt, Senate Democrats and the Utah Education Association announced support for tightening loopholes in the law to keep firearms out of schools and churches.

``I've never gone up against the LDS Church on a political issue, and I hope I never have to,'' Engen says, still hoping to persuade church leaders to alter their position. ``The LDS Church has a history of getting its way politically and economically in this state.''

In fact, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints never loses on Utah's Capitol Hill, where more than 80% of legislators are active members, many holding current or past leadership positions.

From holding the line on state liquor laws to prohibiting gay marriages, lawmakers know not to make a move until the state's predominant religion has weighed in.

Lobbying, if necessary at all, is usually invisible or understated.

With few exceptions, the church has stayed within the bounds of its claimed right, even obligation, to take a stand on moral issues. Even the American Civil Liberties Union came to the church's defense when, in 1989, it successfully opposed a bill that would have allowed consumption of alcoholic beverages in limousines and charter buses.

Occasionally the faith's methods of persuasion become embarrassingly heavy-handed, as when during a 1992 campaign against legalized horse-race wagering, the church distributed to regional leaders a list of key legislators, along with their LDS priesthood positions.

And in the late 1980s, the church drew some criticism for frantically lobbying against a flat-tax bill that had no clear moral implications, but would have abolished the deduction for charitable and religious contributions, among others.

In the current debate over guns, the Mormon Church hardly could be accused of being pushy.

In fact, when asked last month about its position on firearms in churches, it said it had no policy, but was considering the matter.

The official statement released Monday was a study in restraint.

``Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate, except as required by officers of the law,'' it said.

The issue grew out of concerns over wording in the state's concealed-weapons permit law, which gun-rights activists argue allow near-universal access to license holders, including in churches, schools and private businesses.

Concerns surfaced publicly for the first time May 15 when Public Safety Commissioner Doug Bodrero and state Office of Education attorney Doug Bates asked lawmakers to give schools and churches specific authority to ban guns. Bodrero also asked for clarification on whether private business owners had the right to ban weapons in their facilities.

The legislative committee considering the matter -- ringed with a standing-room only crowd of gun enthusiasts -- reacted coolly to the request.

``It looks to me like maybe with a little bit of fixing, everything's perfect with the law,'' commented panel leader, Sen. John Holmgren, R-Bear River City.

Gov. Mike Leavitt, when asked about the issue a week later, said he was unprepared to express an opinion on the issue.

The next week, following Democratic gubernatorial candidate Jim Bradley's criticisms of him as ``wishy-washy'' on such an obvious issue, Leavitt expounded on his position. He did not favor a change in the law because he said it was clear existing private property rights gave churches, schools and private businesses the right to prohibit guns if they wished.

Then, this week, after the church statement, Leavitt said he would lead the push to amend the law.

Leavitt says he understands perceptions that he is taking marching orders from the church, but denies that is the case.

The LDS statement ``was totally coincidental to the deliberations we were going through,'' says Leavitt, a lifelong active Mormon Church member.

The governor insists the official church position played absolutely no role in his public policy stand. ``Any implication that that's somehow what guided these decisions is improper,'' Leavitt said.

Leavitt spokeswoman Vicki Varela called the near back-to-back timing of the church and governor's statements ``uncanny and surprising,'' but emphatically denied any link beyond coincidence.

Leavitt and his top staff made their decision Monday morning -- hours before the church statement -- that ``the law would need to be changed and he [Leavitt] clearly would need to take the lead to make our schools and churches safe,'' Varela said.

The staff was simply putting finishing touches on the policy and trying to decide how to announce it when the church statement was issued, she added.

Meetings the next day between Leavitt and Bodrero and a separate private discussion among members of the governor's staff and Engen, of the USSC, and National Rifle Association lobbyist Brian Judy were, said Varela, done out of ``courtesy.''
Engen said Leavitt staffers at the time gave no indication that a decision was made.

``I was told by Robin Riggs [Leavitt's attorney] that the governor had some gut feel on the issue, but he was still gathering information,'' said Engen.


© Copyright 1990-2000, The Salt Lake Tribune



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http://second.amendment.homepage.com
 
sbryce,

Here is the Kirby article that I was telling you about...


Publication: The Salt Lake Tribune
Types: Religion
Published: 06/08/96
Page: C2
Keywords: Guest Column, Religions
In Church, It's Better to Be Weaponless
Byline: By Robert Kirby

The holy hubbub these days seems to be whether or not you can shoot somebody in church.

Wait a minute, that's not right. OK, whether or not you can shoot someone in church if they deserve to be shot. Hmm? No, that's not it either.

How about this: Whether or not Jesus would help you reload if you had to shoot more than one person in church?

Nevermind: Forget it. We'll never resolve the issue as long as it's a stupid one.

For the record, I'm against carrying concealed guns to church. Not because it's a totally bad idea, but rather because it can be a huge pain in the butt. Particularly if the gun goes off when you hadn't planned on it.

I should probably point out here that I carried a concealed Colt .45-caliber Combat Commander to church for 11 years. I did it because small town cops are never off-duty. No matter where you go, including church, people don't stop seeing you as a cop.

Ready or not: That's not necessarily a bad thing unless, of course, a guaranteed bad thing happens. If it does, people invariably say, ``You're a c-c-cop. D-do something.''

Whenever that happened to me, I usually preferred having a gun inside my jacket rather than a Book of Mormon. Not that the book is bad, but it didn't do much for Joseph and Hyrum at Carthage. Then again, neither did the concealed pistol they had.

Take it from me, the cons of packing heat in church far outweigh the pros. You don't know what a contrite spirit is until you've cracked a Sunday School kid in the head with the butt of a gun. About that time I switched from a belt to a shoulder holster.

Relative danger: Even though writing religion columns is more dangerous than being a cop, I no longer carry a gun to church. That doesn't mean that I don't sometimes wish I still did.

Just last week, I found myself wondering how many shots it would take to make Brother Guffer shut up so we could have the closing prayer and go home. In fact, I'll bet all church speakers would think twice about droning on if they knew the audience was not only annoyed but armed.

But like other facets of religion, I can see the issue of guns in church going to the extreme. It wouldn't be long before zipper covers for the scriptures started coming with holsters.

Eventually there would even be bitter interfaith disputes over which caliber was God's true caliber.

Also, for Christians, there's the inescapable irony of carrying a gun into a meeting where the main idea is to worship the Prince of Peace. If you can't see that irony, chances are pretty good that you shouldn't be carrying a gun, much less be allowed to go to the bathroom by yourself.

Personal outlook: I probably wouldn't be so down on the idea of guns in church if I had a better view of people in church. Despite a 2,000-year-old commandment to love one another, we're still using religion as an excuse to alienate each other. Given this level of smarts, it's a wonder that God lets us have driver licenses, much less concealed weapon permits.

Overall, packing guns into church is a bad idea. Mainly because history has proven that when it comes to human beings, religion is a dangerous enough weapon all by itself.


Robert Kirby is a journalist who lives in Springville with his wife and three children. The self-described ``OxyMormon'' welcomes e-mail at Compuserve (72733,3260) and on the Internet at rkirby(AT)itsnet.com.


© Copyright 1990-2000, The Salt Lake Tribune

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Okay DC, I finished here now. Sorry for taking up so much space. The SL trib. archives have URLs ten miles long

Joe



[This message has been edited by nralife (edited May 08, 2000).]
 
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