Thanks Cliff and Jim...checked out the two websites, and am intrigued by the TSA...Cliff, its about 200 miles to Bham to shoot, cant afford the time or gas, thanks, however, for the info...still looking and thinking (plotting)...I'm thinking more of a tactical/pratical ( I'm career LEO, firearms instructor) with realistic scenarios where you have to think about tactics more than you do about saving seconds, etc...not really trying to "trash" other disciplines and styles, just want to be more realistic. Hope you can understand where I'm coming from, FM12