Tueday evening, May 23, between 6 and 7 PM EDT, NPR ran a really interesting, long piece which involved an interview of a guy who had conducted a number of in depth interviews with drug dealers, and a new class of thugs whose primary occupation is to rob drug dealers.
The two interesting points in this piece were:
(1) the claim that the vast majority of street level drug dealers now do not carry firearms, and
(2) the observation that a whole new class of firearm offenders has been created who prey on disarmed drug dealers because they (a) have cash and (b) do not have guns.
According to the drug dealers, some of whom were interviewed on NPR, the new stiffer penalties for selling drugs, while in possession of firearms, had radically altered the cost/benefit ratio for the dealers.
As one dealer explained it, ten years ago he could get caught with drugs and a firearm and maybe do 6 to 8 months before getting paroled. Now, however, he would face a mandatory minimum 10 year jail sentence. Result -- he gave away his gun and kept selling drugs.
In short, he testified that the deterrent effect of the stiffer penalty was achieved.
The other surprise, that a new group of predators had been created to lift money from "defenseless" drug dealers, was even more bizarre. One of these guys explained that he used street prostitutes to entice the dealers to a liaison at the dealers apartment, and then pounced on the horny bugger with multiple armed partners to relieve them of their money and drugs, fully confident that they would not be armed. As he explained it, it was a cake walk, the victims literally shovelled the money to them.
This report was simply too far out to forget. Are we really to believe that the stiffer sentences had THIS kind of deterence. Is it plausible, a la John Lott, that the predators are simply moving in on one more class of defenseless, albeit improbable, "victims."
If the deterence theory works, there is some basis (whether we like it or not) for the idea that bg's will "obey" some laws.
If the predator theory works, there is tangible evidence in favor of Lott's theory that the absence of guns causes gun violence.
In short, some ammo for both sides.
___________________
OK here's the transcript:
______________________
c 2000 National Public Radio ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without
attribution to National Public Radio. This transcript may not be reproduced
in whole or in part without prior written permission. For further information
please contact NPR's Permissions Coordinator at (202) 414-2000. Transcript
produced by Burrelle's Information Services, Box 7, Livingston, NJ 07039.
*****
SHOW: All Things Considered
DATE: May 23, 2000
LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:
It's NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Linda Wertheimer.
ROBERT SIEGEL, host:
And I'm Robert Siegel.
Guns, drugs, money and the law interact in surprising ways. In both St. Louis
and New York City, ethnographers have detected a small wave of lucrative
violent crimes that go unreported. That's because the victims are criminals,
drug dealers. Andrei Bunde(ph) is a 29-year-old former coke dealer turned
heroin addict. He's one of St. Louis criminologist Bruce Jacobs' newer
informants. Bunde says the people who rob drug dealers know that they're easy
prey.
Mr. ANDREI BUNDE (Drug Dealer, St. Louis, Missouri): They know that they're not
walking around with no gun. You know, you don't want to take the chance of
getting caught with no gun, 'cause it's harder to hide a gun. You know, so you
probably got a nice little stash spot in your car where you hide your dope at.
The police could search it, search you, and not find it. But if I got a gun on
me, they gonna find my gun, impound my car, strip my car down, then they gonna
find the drugs, too.
SIEGEL: And 'cause the police are tougher on guns now then they used to be?
Mr. BUNDE: Phew! Yeah. You know what I'm saying, it's a felony case now. And
so you wouldn't even go to the state for catching a gun case. Or I get caught
with an automatic pistol, they gonna to try and send me to the feds.
SIEGEL: And 10 years ago?
Mr. BUNDE: Ten years ago, I probably would have went down to the work house, do
your six to eight months, came home on probation.
SIEGEL: Mm.
Mr. BUNDE: Mm-hmm.
SIEGEL: So nowadays...
Mr. BUNDE: It's not worth the risk to carry a gun around.
SIEGEL: So the drug dealer who is driving around with drugs in the car is
unarmed...
Mr. BUNDE: He ain't gonna have no gun on him.
SIEGEL: And other people know that.
Mr. BUNDE: And they know that.
SIEGEL: They can to take advantage of you.
Mr. BUNDE: Yeah. They know that.
SIEGEL: So one unintended consequence of tougher gun enforcement is making some
criminals more vulnerable to other criminals. Ethnographer Bruce Jacobs has
written a book about this. He says unarmed drug dealers are perfect victims.
Associate Professor BRUCE JACOBS (Criminology, University of Missouri St.
Louis): They can't call the cops. They deal only in cash. They're accessible.
They're visible. Bystanders are not going to intervene. And plus they have
precisely what a user wants most--cash and drugs.
SIEGEL: So where are the enforcers? Where are the big--you know, drug
operations gunmen who'll come and get you if you rob a drug dealer?
Assoc. Prof. JACOBS: Yeah. There's a lot of talk about, you know, retaliation
on the streets, but in most cases, it's more talk than real. I mean, the time
spent tracking somebody down is time you can be spending making money.
SIEGEL: Bruce Jacobs' most prolific source of information about all this is a
lean 20-year-old in a Cardinals baseball cap, a menacing young man who has put
Jacobs in touch with two dozen people who, like him, have robbed drug dealers.
He says he's dealt drugs since he was 11. And if you're a drug dealer, he
says, he knows when you have money and drugs. And he figures your weakness is
sex, so he baits the trap with a woman.
Unidentified Man #1 (Drug Dealer, St. Louis, Missouri): I sick one of my little
ghetto whores on you, and you gonna fall for it--you gonna fall for it. Smoke
some weed with her. Get on some drink with her. And then when she get to your
house, best believe I'm going to be in your gangway--me and so more
mother-(censored). When all of them got on masks and all of them got pistols
in their hands, you in trouble.
SIEGEL: Can you imagine that guy calling the police and saying, `I've just been
robbed'?
Unidentified Man #1: I'm gone then--long gone.
SIEGEL: Yeah.
Unidentified Man #1: I'm long gone, me and the bitch.
SIEGEL: Are the police interested in finding people who rob drug dealers?
Unidentified Man #1: Mm, I doubt it. They trying to get the (censored) away
from them anyway. But how can you call the police? What can you tell the
police? What can you tell them? `Four guys came to my house, robbed me out of
all my dope.' How's that gonna sound? Dope? I had a ki of dope and I had like
$85,000 in cash.
SIEGEL: Have you gotten that much in a robbery?
Unidentified Man #1: Yeah, I got close to $85,000
SIEGEL: Eight-five thousand--but you and other guys--not you alone?
Unidentified Man #1: Yeah, me and other guys, not just by myself.
SIEGEL: Plus, the kilo that you got.
Unidentified Man #1: Plus some dope. It wasn't no kilo, but it was cool.
SIEGEL: What if the tables were turned, I asked. What if some younger thug
pulled a gun on him? He says he would just give his money up.
Unidentified Man #1: I would just give it to him. Here, man. Take it. Here.
SIEGEL: And with that word of surrender, the slouching, surly tough guy turns
docile. His hand weakly tenders an imaginary bankroll from his pocket. It is
a gesture of submission so perfectly rendered that you can tell it's an action
he's extorted from others at gunpoint.
Unidentified Man #1: Here. Here.
SIEGEL: It's just part of doing business?
Unidentified Man #1: Here.
SIEGEL: Has anyone tried to rob you?
Unidentified Man #1: Yeah, I've been robbed two times.
SIEGEL: And you just lse the money and the drugs, and that's it?
Unidentified Man #1: Here.
SIEGEL: ...give it.
Unidentified Man #1: Yeah. I'd rather have my life.
SIEGEL: You're still in business and you're still alive.
Unidentified Man #1: Right, I'm a--because I'm a smart businessman. I know if
the table's turned on me what to do--give it up.
SIEGEL: In New York, anthropologist Rick Curtis at John Jay College of Criminal
Justice, has come across the same phenomenon. For years, he's been
interviewing a Puerto Rican man, a heroin addict and one-time enforcer for a
Brooklyn drug ring. This man went to prison, came home and grew impatient with
the long hours and low prestige of Brooklyn drug dealing in the late '90s. So,
as this informant told Curtis on tape, he and his buddy Mike, instead of being
drug dealers, took up robbing drug dealers.
Unidentified Man #2 (Robs Drug Dealers in New York City): OK, like I was
saying, consider that we both get high. See, he's got a crack habit and a dope
habit. I only got a dope habit. So whenever we used to run out of money--You
know what I'm saying? He gave me the idea of going and sticking up drug
dealers, considering that they're committing crimes, so they, you know...
Professor RICK CURTIS (Anthropologist, John Jay College of Criminal Justice,
New York): They're not going to rat.
Unidentified Man #2: They're not going to rat us out for robbing them from what
they're not supposed to be selling and the money that they illegally supposed
to be getting.
Mr. CURTIS: Hm.
Unidentified Man #2: So, therefore, we was going around robbing drug dealers.
SIEGEL: So tell me about interviewing a guy like this.
Mr. CURTIS: Well, to begin with, he's a really scary guy, to--just visually to
look at him, because he's got--you know, covered with scars from head to toe,
all over his face and, you know--a hired killer, basically, is what he is.
But, you know, I usually make it my business on the streets to befriend those
guys, first and foremost. Because once you get that guy on your side, nobody
gives you any trouble after that.
Unidentified Man #2: When we used to drive around in the car, we used to take
the shotgun in the hood, in front of the hood of the car, where the engine was
at.
Mr. CURTIS: Why?
Unidentified Man #2: Inside...
SIEGEL: The added twist of this criminal duo was to pretend they were
undercover police shaking down the drug dealers. Apparently, two men, one
Puerto Rican and one white, driving with a shotgun, conveyed precisely that on
the streets of Brooklyn.
This man's career as a robber of drug dealers, his constant arguments with
younger dealers who took over while he was in prison--all this for Rick Curtis
amounts to more than just grisly, mean-streets anecdote.
Mr. CURTIS: This guy is representative of trends that are happening in terms of
changes on the street. And on one hand, he's talking about these disputes that
he has with these younger guys out there--so it tips us off to the fact that
there's not this kind of intergenerational continuity, but there's an
intergenerational discontinuity that ends up with--you know, manifesting itself
in violent episodes on the street corner. But in addition, he's talking about
how changes in the social organization of the drug business have changed and
what it means in terms of earning money, what it means in terms of respect,
what it means in terms of other kinds of crimes. So we begin actually to see
that robbing drug dealers has become quite a popular activity among certain
segments of these inner-city neighborhoods, and that very likely is going to
become a bigger problem, as well, in the next few years.
SIEGEL: Teaching in programs that train many students for jobs in law
enforcement, ethnographers say they commonly meet with exasperation from
colleagues or students who would rather prosecute than publish their
informants. But they say the complete trust that they enjoy is what gets us
good and current information about illicit drug use in America.
(Soundbite of music)
WERTHEIMER: You're listening to NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
[This message has been edited by abruzzi (edited May 25, 2000).]
The two interesting points in this piece were:
(1) the claim that the vast majority of street level drug dealers now do not carry firearms, and
(2) the observation that a whole new class of firearm offenders has been created who prey on disarmed drug dealers because they (a) have cash and (b) do not have guns.
According to the drug dealers, some of whom were interviewed on NPR, the new stiffer penalties for selling drugs, while in possession of firearms, had radically altered the cost/benefit ratio for the dealers.
As one dealer explained it, ten years ago he could get caught with drugs and a firearm and maybe do 6 to 8 months before getting paroled. Now, however, he would face a mandatory minimum 10 year jail sentence. Result -- he gave away his gun and kept selling drugs.
In short, he testified that the deterrent effect of the stiffer penalty was achieved.
The other surprise, that a new group of predators had been created to lift money from "defenseless" drug dealers, was even more bizarre. One of these guys explained that he used street prostitutes to entice the dealers to a liaison at the dealers apartment, and then pounced on the horny bugger with multiple armed partners to relieve them of their money and drugs, fully confident that they would not be armed. As he explained it, it was a cake walk, the victims literally shovelled the money to them.
This report was simply too far out to forget. Are we really to believe that the stiffer sentences had THIS kind of deterence. Is it plausible, a la John Lott, that the predators are simply moving in on one more class of defenseless, albeit improbable, "victims."
If the deterence theory works, there is some basis (whether we like it or not) for the idea that bg's will "obey" some laws.
If the predator theory works, there is tangible evidence in favor of Lott's theory that the absence of guns causes gun violence.
In short, some ammo for both sides.
___________________
OK here's the transcript:
______________________
c 2000 National Public Radio ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without
attribution to National Public Radio. This transcript may not be reproduced
in whole or in part without prior written permission. For further information
please contact NPR's Permissions Coordinator at (202) 414-2000. Transcript
produced by Burrelle's Information Services, Box 7, Livingston, NJ 07039.
*****
SHOW: All Things Considered
DATE: May 23, 2000
LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:
It's NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Linda Wertheimer.
ROBERT SIEGEL, host:
And I'm Robert Siegel.
Guns, drugs, money and the law interact in surprising ways. In both St. Louis
and New York City, ethnographers have detected a small wave of lucrative
violent crimes that go unreported. That's because the victims are criminals,
drug dealers. Andrei Bunde(ph) is a 29-year-old former coke dealer turned
heroin addict. He's one of St. Louis criminologist Bruce Jacobs' newer
informants. Bunde says the people who rob drug dealers know that they're easy
prey.
Mr. ANDREI BUNDE (Drug Dealer, St. Louis, Missouri): They know that they're not
walking around with no gun. You know, you don't want to take the chance of
getting caught with no gun, 'cause it's harder to hide a gun. You know, so you
probably got a nice little stash spot in your car where you hide your dope at.
The police could search it, search you, and not find it. But if I got a gun on
me, they gonna find my gun, impound my car, strip my car down, then they gonna
find the drugs, too.
SIEGEL: And 'cause the police are tougher on guns now then they used to be?
Mr. BUNDE: Phew! Yeah. You know what I'm saying, it's a felony case now. And
so you wouldn't even go to the state for catching a gun case. Or I get caught
with an automatic pistol, they gonna to try and send me to the feds.
SIEGEL: And 10 years ago?
Mr. BUNDE: Ten years ago, I probably would have went down to the work house, do
your six to eight months, came home on probation.
SIEGEL: Mm.
Mr. BUNDE: Mm-hmm.
SIEGEL: So nowadays...
Mr. BUNDE: It's not worth the risk to carry a gun around.
SIEGEL: So the drug dealer who is driving around with drugs in the car is
unarmed...
Mr. BUNDE: He ain't gonna have no gun on him.
SIEGEL: And other people know that.
Mr. BUNDE: And they know that.
SIEGEL: They can to take advantage of you.
Mr. BUNDE: Yeah. They know that.
SIEGEL: So one unintended consequence of tougher gun enforcement is making some
criminals more vulnerable to other criminals. Ethnographer Bruce Jacobs has
written a book about this. He says unarmed drug dealers are perfect victims.
Associate Professor BRUCE JACOBS (Criminology, University of Missouri St.
Louis): They can't call the cops. They deal only in cash. They're accessible.
They're visible. Bystanders are not going to intervene. And plus they have
precisely what a user wants most--cash and drugs.
SIEGEL: So where are the enforcers? Where are the big--you know, drug
operations gunmen who'll come and get you if you rob a drug dealer?
Assoc. Prof. JACOBS: Yeah. There's a lot of talk about, you know, retaliation
on the streets, but in most cases, it's more talk than real. I mean, the time
spent tracking somebody down is time you can be spending making money.
SIEGEL: Bruce Jacobs' most prolific source of information about all this is a
lean 20-year-old in a Cardinals baseball cap, a menacing young man who has put
Jacobs in touch with two dozen people who, like him, have robbed drug dealers.
He says he's dealt drugs since he was 11. And if you're a drug dealer, he
says, he knows when you have money and drugs. And he figures your weakness is
sex, so he baits the trap with a woman.
Unidentified Man #1 (Drug Dealer, St. Louis, Missouri): I sick one of my little
ghetto whores on you, and you gonna fall for it--you gonna fall for it. Smoke
some weed with her. Get on some drink with her. And then when she get to your
house, best believe I'm going to be in your gangway--me and so more
mother-(censored). When all of them got on masks and all of them got pistols
in their hands, you in trouble.
SIEGEL: Can you imagine that guy calling the police and saying, `I've just been
robbed'?
Unidentified Man #1: I'm gone then--long gone.
SIEGEL: Yeah.
Unidentified Man #1: I'm long gone, me and the bitch.
SIEGEL: Are the police interested in finding people who rob drug dealers?
Unidentified Man #1: Mm, I doubt it. They trying to get the (censored) away
from them anyway. But how can you call the police? What can you tell the
police? What can you tell them? `Four guys came to my house, robbed me out of
all my dope.' How's that gonna sound? Dope? I had a ki of dope and I had like
$85,000 in cash.
SIEGEL: Have you gotten that much in a robbery?
Unidentified Man #1: Yeah, I got close to $85,000
SIEGEL: Eight-five thousand--but you and other guys--not you alone?
Unidentified Man #1: Yeah, me and other guys, not just by myself.
SIEGEL: Plus, the kilo that you got.
Unidentified Man #1: Plus some dope. It wasn't no kilo, but it was cool.
SIEGEL: What if the tables were turned, I asked. What if some younger thug
pulled a gun on him? He says he would just give his money up.
Unidentified Man #1: I would just give it to him. Here, man. Take it. Here.
SIEGEL: And with that word of surrender, the slouching, surly tough guy turns
docile. His hand weakly tenders an imaginary bankroll from his pocket. It is
a gesture of submission so perfectly rendered that you can tell it's an action
he's extorted from others at gunpoint.
Unidentified Man #1: Here. Here.
SIEGEL: It's just part of doing business?
Unidentified Man #1: Here.
SIEGEL: Has anyone tried to rob you?
Unidentified Man #1: Yeah, I've been robbed two times.
SIEGEL: And you just lse the money and the drugs, and that's it?
Unidentified Man #1: Here.
SIEGEL: ...give it.
Unidentified Man #1: Yeah. I'd rather have my life.
SIEGEL: You're still in business and you're still alive.
Unidentified Man #1: Right, I'm a--because I'm a smart businessman. I know if
the table's turned on me what to do--give it up.
SIEGEL: In New York, anthropologist Rick Curtis at John Jay College of Criminal
Justice, has come across the same phenomenon. For years, he's been
interviewing a Puerto Rican man, a heroin addict and one-time enforcer for a
Brooklyn drug ring. This man went to prison, came home and grew impatient with
the long hours and low prestige of Brooklyn drug dealing in the late '90s. So,
as this informant told Curtis on tape, he and his buddy Mike, instead of being
drug dealers, took up robbing drug dealers.
Unidentified Man #2 (Robs Drug Dealers in New York City): OK, like I was
saying, consider that we both get high. See, he's got a crack habit and a dope
habit. I only got a dope habit. So whenever we used to run out of money--You
know what I'm saying? He gave me the idea of going and sticking up drug
dealers, considering that they're committing crimes, so they, you know...
Professor RICK CURTIS (Anthropologist, John Jay College of Criminal Justice,
New York): They're not going to rat.
Unidentified Man #2: They're not going to rat us out for robbing them from what
they're not supposed to be selling and the money that they illegally supposed
to be getting.
Mr. CURTIS: Hm.
Unidentified Man #2: So, therefore, we was going around robbing drug dealers.
SIEGEL: So tell me about interviewing a guy like this.
Mr. CURTIS: Well, to begin with, he's a really scary guy, to--just visually to
look at him, because he's got--you know, covered with scars from head to toe,
all over his face and, you know--a hired killer, basically, is what he is.
But, you know, I usually make it my business on the streets to befriend those
guys, first and foremost. Because once you get that guy on your side, nobody
gives you any trouble after that.
Unidentified Man #2: When we used to drive around in the car, we used to take
the shotgun in the hood, in front of the hood of the car, where the engine was
at.
Mr. CURTIS: Why?
Unidentified Man #2: Inside...
SIEGEL: The added twist of this criminal duo was to pretend they were
undercover police shaking down the drug dealers. Apparently, two men, one
Puerto Rican and one white, driving with a shotgun, conveyed precisely that on
the streets of Brooklyn.
This man's career as a robber of drug dealers, his constant arguments with
younger dealers who took over while he was in prison--all this for Rick Curtis
amounts to more than just grisly, mean-streets anecdote.
Mr. CURTIS: This guy is representative of trends that are happening in terms of
changes on the street. And on one hand, he's talking about these disputes that
he has with these younger guys out there--so it tips us off to the fact that
there's not this kind of intergenerational continuity, but there's an
intergenerational discontinuity that ends up with--you know, manifesting itself
in violent episodes on the street corner. But in addition, he's talking about
how changes in the social organization of the drug business have changed and
what it means in terms of earning money, what it means in terms of respect,
what it means in terms of other kinds of crimes. So we begin actually to see
that robbing drug dealers has become quite a popular activity among certain
segments of these inner-city neighborhoods, and that very likely is going to
become a bigger problem, as well, in the next few years.
SIEGEL: Teaching in programs that train many students for jobs in law
enforcement, ethnographers say they commonly meet with exasperation from
colleagues or students who would rather prosecute than publish their
informants. But they say the complete trust that they enjoy is what gets us
good and current information about illicit drug use in America.
(Soundbite of music)
WERTHEIMER: You're listening to NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
[This message has been edited by abruzzi (edited May 25, 2000).]
