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kmw1954

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In the past I have swore I would never become a rifle shooter as I just didn't have an interest and I don't hunt. That was until I started working the outdoor rifle range. Which led me to buying a very nice used Savage Axis 223.

This is going to be a whole new experience for me, from the shooting to the reloading. I have never reloaded bottleneck cases.

So this past week I started to gather all the needed tools and supplies. Starting with Lee RGB dies and adding a Short rifle powder die and a Collet FCD for rifle. Also picked up a Universal Decapping die because I never bought one.

For brass I am starting with PMC non-crimped to try and eliminate one step to start with and while sorting this brass out I seemed to notice PMC used 2 different headstamps so I sorted by those also. Also have a couple ice cream buckets of LC brass set aside to process.

Found 2 powders at the local BPS; Hodgdon BL-C2 and Ramshot TAC. The Tac wasn't even listed on their website so I was surprised to see it.

For bullets I found some Hornady; one box Varmint 55gr SP with Cannelure and one box 55gr SP w/o. Then one box of Match 68gr BTHP.

This weekend is shot in the pants as the daughter is getting Married today.
 
I'd highly recommend a headspace gauge to measure the amount you push the shoulders back when sizing. Hornady's Headspace Gauge Set is great and works with your calipers. Need a case trimmer also. Have fun.
 
Congrats on the wedding, may she have a long and happy life.
Did you find primers? That's the bottle neck right now.
223 is easy loading, love it myself. I use a lot of Hornaday bullets, but not with the powders you have.
 
Something you may want to try is load some and use the FCD and load some without using the FCD. I have a few and have yet to use them. See what works out best for you and your rifle.

Enjoy the rifle. :)

Ron
 
Something to check is the twist rate of the rifling in the barrel.
That will determine what bullet weight you want to shoot.
For example with a 1:9 twist you can shoot up to a 73gr weight bullet.
This depends on bullet design, length being the biggest factor.
The advertized twist rate from the manufacturer can get you close.

A crimp is not necessary for your Axis rifle.

BL-C2 and Tac are good powders. In 223 Rem a wide varieties of powders work well.
Varget, RL15 are good go to powders also.
For my shooting i'm using 69gr MatchKings & Tipped MatchKings with Alliant Power Pro 2000 MR.

A headspace gauge after full length sizing, then collet neck sizing is not needed.
And i have no clue why one would be recommended.
 
I'd ditch the Lee FCD it's not needed at all.
But I would suggest the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die.
Once you fire form the brass, you just size the neck thereafter without touching the body.
TAC is good choice and it works great in 308's as well.
Your Axis in one of the most underrated rifles off the shelf. Many can produce half minute groups at 100yds if you allow the barrel to cool a bit between shots.
Congrats on the wedding.
My daughter was engaged to a doctor, I gave him a Sig 2022 for Xmas but a month later they called off the wedding. I'm thinking I got off really cheap.
 
Both powders mentioned are most commonly used in 308. They should be fine with the 68-grain bullets in 223, but may not perform as well with 55-grain bullets. BL-(C)2, specifically, is canister grade WC846, and was rejected for M193 ammo (55-grain bullets) during the '60s because it was found to be too slow for the M16 (though I don't know the criteria used for that assessment), and it was replaced with the less strongly deterred WC-844 (H335 in canister grade). This is not to say the 308 powders won't get your 55-grain bullets out of the barrel. In the bolt gun, the exact pressures are less critical than in a gas gun. However, the ballistic efficiency (ft-lbs of bullet ME for each grain of powder used) won't be as good as with a more appropriate 55-grain choice, and you may experience more velocity spread and more powder fouling with it. A magnum primer is frequently found to be important with BL-(C)2.
 
I'm pretty new to reloading. But what I've learned is this regarding a 223, 22" barrel and 1 in 9 twist: slower burning powder that compacts well (Tac) and bullet weights in the 60s to 70. From what I recall from years back, the 223 shines with the longer barrel.

Why are you reloading for a bolt gun? Super accuracy I imagine.

Congrats on the marriage. May they be wiser than their generation (and mine).

John
 
Thank you all for contributing to my education, many good points presented.

First of all, yes primers are secure. A friend has some that he no longer will use so we are trading. The brass I have set aside I did check length and it is all still undersize but will check again after sizing.

As to trying some with and w/o the use of the FCD is something I will try as I have not been using one on my pistol loads. Though I have been reading that the rifle collet type crimp die does a very fine job of uniform crimp.

I have checked and the twist rate on this rifle is 1:9 which from what I have been reading put me in the optimal range of 60gr to 75gr bullets. Though I am reading that the 55 gr will work and will work pretty well.

Have also read and made aware that both these powders will work better with heavier bullets, sadly at this time I was unable to locate any faster powders locally. Would have liked to have found some 2460 or H335 but none is to be had.

I have been able to talk with a couple BR shooters and both of them always full length resize and are both shooting 6mmBR. I can only hope to become as proficient as these guys.

So I understand and am fully aware that these powders and bullets are a compromise but are what was available locally and should at the very least provide a platform to get my feet wet.
 
I have only found one 55 grain bullet that really shoots accurately - the Berger #22410 Flat Base. Most of the other 55 grain bullets seem to be made with bulk bullet quality in mind.

I have a Savage 12 FV .223 and a CZ 527 Varmint .223.
Both have 1:9 twist barrels.
Both shoot 69 grain Sierra SMK and TMKs great.

I read on another site that someone had shot 77 grain SMKs in his Savage 1:9 and they shot great.
I was skeptical because all the stability calculators say they would be marginally stable.
But I tried the Sierra SMK 77 grain #9377 and they did shoot great.
Then I tried the Sierra TMK 77 grain #7177 and they shot just as well.

At 100 yards with bullets seated for a 0.020 jump (+/-0.005):
I have now shot 101 5-round groups with the 77 SMKs with IMR4166 and N140 powders and they have averaged 0.293.
I have shot 229 5-round groups with the 77 TMKs with the same two powders and averaged 0.280.

The 69 SMKs with the same two powders average 0.290 for 104 groups.
The 69 grain TMKs with the same powders average 0.287 for 199 groups.
The CZ averages 0.302 for the 77 grain bullets but for a much smaller sample.
The CZ is an older rifle with over 7,000 rounds through the barrel so I don't shoot it much anymore.

I cannot explain why these 77 grain bullets stabilize in two 1:9 twist barrels.
They both have high BCs (that ballistic stability calculators don't consider).
The SMKs are supposed to be more stable than the TMKs but the results don't show that.
I've had two shooting buddies with 1:9 twist rifles try the 77s and their results show that their rifles show no loss in accuracy over the 69 grain bullets.
 
Rimfire5,

You will find the stability calculators frequently underestimate the stability of .224" hollow point and plastic-tipped bullets. The technical reason is that these calculators are based on the assumption of uniform material density throughout the bullet. This is fine for a soft point or an FMJ, but they cause an erroneous estimate of a characteristic called the transverse moment of inertia when the bullet has a hollow point, even if it is filled with a low-density plastic. The hollow tends to be larger in proportion in the little bullets, so the error gets bigger when it is. Overestimating the transverse moment of inertia results in overestimating the bullet's angular momentum in a tumbling motion. It takes less spin to correct for the smaller angular momentum the bullet will actually have. The bottom line is, you need to subtract a little length from the bullet to compensate for that. Determining how much to subtract, though requires a bit of work. You need a torsion pendulum and stopwatch to determine the bullet's transverse and axial moments of inertia, the locations of the bullet's center of gravity and center of pressure, and the drag force that acts on the bullet at muzzle velocity. This information plugs into a simple formula that tells you the spin rate at a gyroscopic stability factor of 1. You can then calculate a barrel twist to produce that spin rate at your muzzle velocity, plug it into the calculator and tweak the bullet length in the calculator until the result is a stability factor of 1. You then have the corrected bullet length to use in that calculator with that bullet in the future. This is probably drilling down far enough into the weeds that most people won't be interested in pursuing it. It's easier just to shoot and see if the bullet works or not.

The SMKs are more stable than the TMKs simply because the latter are longer for their weight and the plastic tip moves the center of pressure forward. But seeing that greater stability on paper is another matter. The only way I know to do that without a lot of complicated measuring is to shoot at long enough range in a varying wind to see the bullet move around. What you are looking for is how much vertical POI shift aerodynamic jump is causing. If you don't correct your sights, the varying wind will produce diagonal stringing of the shots, and, assuming you shoot the rifle without any cant, the angle of the diagonal off the horizontal changes a little with the bullet's average stability factor between muzzle and target. The SMK, being more stable than the TMK will then show up as the SMK's diagonal being at a tiny bit steeper angle off horizontal. But you can see from the idealized plot, below, that the difference isn't large.

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My advice based on my experience is use the PMC as throw away brass for plinking in the woods when you aren’t going to recover the brass. The primer pockets shoot loose pretty fast. Process the LC brass and use it for load development and range shooting. You’ll get a lot more reloads from it. Don’t sweat the crimped primers, many easy ways to remove the crimp. If you’re not shooting high volume just get the Lyman tool for removing crimps, easy peasy and not too expensive. In the lighter weight bullets I’ve had great success with Varget and in the heavier range H4895 rings my bell. This is out of my AR with an 18” heavy barrel from Aeroprecision. I get consistent sub 1” groups with 55gr SPFB bullets and with 68gr Hornady HPBT Match bullets 1/2”-5/8” groups consistently, shooting ten round groups. On a really good/lucky day the 68gr bullets will be under 1/2” which for me just doesn’t seem to happen often enough.
 
Well thank you everyone for taking the time to respond and lend guidance. I will be looking for a headspace gauge and after a couple videos I understand the difference in what is the rifle and pistol versions.

As to the issue of brass, I am not overly concerned with brass as I am working at an outdoor range and am swimming in it everyday. So much so that I'm working on a box to fill with 223 for a member on another forum all for the cost of shipping. After I've picked out what I want of course. If the PMC only lasts 3,4,5 reloading then I will just throw it away and replace it. It's not like it's costing me anything.

Hopefully a day will soon come and things will return to a normal sense. Then we can all find the exact bullet we want or need.

Lastly thank you all again for the kind words, the Wedding went very well. I even shed a tear!
 
Wow, lots of info on here...not sure of the value of it all.

My simple advice....make your cases fit your chamber the best you can. Make your bullets touch the lands....or within 0.060”. Choose the charge weight your rifle likes best. Run precision bullets matched to the job at hand....lighter can be better. Practice shooting from an absolutely stable rest. . . And never let folks tell you a Savage is junk.....it might need a new stock!
 
Thanks, Unclenick.
Your the first person who has been able to logically explain why the 77 grain bullets would stabilize when the stability calculators said they wouldn't.
 
How to find your lands: LINK

How to setup your FL Sizing die: LINK

These are good videos from Alex Wheeler to get you going.
 
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