November 22, 1963

A

abruzzi

New member
The following quote is from the speech John Kennedy would have given had he reached his destination in Dallas 36 years ago (and reproduced in today's New York Times). It has resonance today, as it did then, in part perhaps for reasons not then contemplated:

QUOTE

"Voices are being heard in the land, he said, "voices preaching doctrines wholly unrelated to reality, wholly unsuited to the sixties, doctrines which apparently assume that words will suffice without weapons, that vituperation is as good as victory and that peace is a sign of weakness."

The speech went on: "At a time when the national debt is steadily being reduced in terms of its burden on our economy, they see that debt as the greatest threat to our security. At a time when we are steadily reducing the number of Federal employees serving every thousand citizens, they fear those supposed hordes of civil servants far more than the actual hordes of opposing armies.

"We cannot expect that everyone, to use the phrase of a decade ago, will 'talk sense to the American people.' But we can hope that fewer people will listen to nonsense. And the notion that this nation is headed for defeat through deficit, or that strength is but a matter of slogans, is nothing but just plain nonsense."

END QUOTE
 
This why JFK was whacked: he spoke truth, and we can't have that, now can we?


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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
 
Yes, it was a coup by the elites. It was not hard for a combo of Banksters(Fed Reserve boys), Mafia, Cia elements, Fbi, and probably the Massad(Kennedy warned Isreal not to develope the atomic bomb) to get together,pull the job off , kill off scores of witnesses,and use the politicians on the Warren report to keep it all hidden. As far as I am concerned, the killing of JFK put the last nail in the coffin of this former Republic. JFK, for all his foibles(loved the broads), tried to stem the oligarchy that had dominated our country for so long. He wanted to eliminate the Cia which even IKe and Truman feared. I think Ike, in his farwell address when he warned about the US military industrial complex, was trying to tell the people of this evil. But the sleeping media didnt pick up on his speech as they should have. The elites always either kill or stop in other ways the people in this country who speak out against Banksters and their allies who up to this day dominate this corporate "governmink". Lincoln with his Greenbacks,Mckinley who opposed banking interests(England), Teddy roosevelt(Populists under the banner of the Bull Moose Party), Huey Long(no depression in LA.because monopolies were cut down), JFK, George Wallace("Both parties are the same") , and Martin Luther King were either killed or shot by assasins.All were opposed to the monopolists in one way or another. They had to be eliminated.
 
Ivan-
Say what? Kennedy wanted to "stem" the oligarchy? The Fed and the Jews killed him? You now have this conspiracy dating back to Lincoln?

For Heaven's Sake, man. C'mon.
Rich
 
Let's review:

JFK was elected in large part due to Mafia influence in the labor unions at the time. His father essentially WAS the mob in New England. He and his brother Robert then turned on the mob. They are both now dead.

I'm not sure how much help the mob may have had or how much ineptness on the part of the gubmint played a part, but at the top of the short list of the likely suspects is organized crime, IMHO.

BTW, watching the Zapruder film on the History Channel last night. Anyone else struck with the marksmanship involved? Not to be morbid, but you're talking about a moving target, limited visibility, distractions, and a good amount of pressure. Heck, I missed a deer once at 80 yds that was standing still. I'm sure anyone who's experienced "buck fever" can relate to the difficulty of those shots. Buck fever times 10 or so. The folks who did it weren't just picking up a rifle for the first time.

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"Put a rifle in the hands of a Subject, and he immediately becomes a Citizen." -- Jeff Cooper
 
Since the gummit now says the tape of OSWALD calling the Soviet embasy in Mexico City is not Oswald but somebody else using his name, do we now have a deeper mystery?

The Carcano rifle "used" was bought from a mailorder house that old man Kennedy had a big interest in. The first reports had the rifle found in the book depository as being a Mauser, the first photos of the rifle "found" was of another model Carcano rifle than the one seen since that time.

If Oswald had been working alone (or was involved in the murder) why did he wait to fire at a target that was moving away from him at a angle when he had a clear shot at an automobile that was coming directly at his position? How did he get down three flights of stairs to a Coke machine and be drinking a can of soda when the police entered the building and not be breathing hard or even excited or nervous at all? He was talking to several other employees in the building when the police came in, if I remember the reports correctly. He just fired three shots with a junk rifle, using a junk 'scope, making three hits in an impossible time, ran down three flights of stairs, engaged in casual conversation with other employees, started drinking a can of soda and was not excited or out of breath. If he was that calm after all that he sure would not of had to worry about Office Tibbets (sp?) much later that day.

We will never know the truth about what happened in Dallas. The Warren Commission did what it did and became the model of all such commissions since. "Find out a little and make sure it ain't the entire truth." Witness the investigation of Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Sorry about my rant.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"



[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited November 23, 1999).]
 
For all of the people who beleave that JFK was killed by some "unknown" conspiracy, I would encourage you to get a copy of a book by Gerald Posner called "Case Closed". Mr. Posner goes to great lengths to investigate the murder of JFK using the latest computer analysis of the Zupruder tapes and investigates all of the rumors that have been floating around for years.

Does this book answer all of the questions and inconsistancies? No, but I'm sure that any law enforcement officer will tell you that even the most airtight case still has some inconsistancies. O.J. Simpson can attest to that.

Sometimes the easiest answer is the correct answer. Even the worlds most powerfull man can be killed by a psychotic little loser.
 
A few years after Kennedy was killed the NRA built a tower sytem to duplicate the range ,angles and speed that had been shot in Dallas.They took 10 NRA EXPERT RIFLEMEN and gave them the same model carcano rifle that was used.Only 3 out of the 10 could do it.Now Oswald just qualified in the military.What conclusion do I draw?He either wasn't the shooter or he had help.JMO
Bob
 
Bob,

That is addressed in the book. The NRA was using a time frame of approximately 3.5 seconds for the three shots. The latest computer analysis of the Zapruder film gives a time frame of approximately 8.3 seconds for the three shots. Three marksmen were able to duplicate this in under 6 seconds. Firing 3 shots, which only requires working the action twice, is easily done by an experienced rifleman. Oswald qualified as a Sharpshooter during boot camp. It was only later, as a disgruntled misfit, that he qualified as Marksman.

According to Oswald's wife, he practiced dry-firing for hours almost every night in the months leading up to the shooting. The Carcano that Oswald used was found to be a decent rifle capable of the accuracy required to hit a man, traveling very slowly (5 MPH) and almost straight away, 2 out of 3 times at under 100 yards with a 4x scope. Oswald had built a very good "hide" to shoot from utilizing a solid rest. Oswald was far from the "lousy shot" using a "junk rifle" that many people have advocated.

I would once again encourage people interested in this matter to get the book "Case Closed". It addresses all of the conspiracy theories point by point and answers them with the best available evidence and factual documentation. It deals with the "pristine" bullet, the "mystery" deaths of witnesses, Jack Ruby's "mob" connections, Jim Garrison, everything.
 
Cactus, I have to agree about 'Case Closed'. At the very least it addresses all of the different theories, dead witnesses and 'impossibilities' of a lone shooter and debunks them. I found it a fascinating read and a good balance to all the other expert theories proposed.

Regards, Chris..
 
Cactus, I have to disagree with your assessment of the Mannlicher Carcano. They are junk, pure and simple. Those rifles were sold to people who didn't know much about guns. I believe they were advertised as "only dropped once."

Add to the poor quality weapon, the fact that the mail order rifle probably wasn't zeroed. Somebody else was involved (I don't know who). Oswald was a patsy.

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45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel!
 
BigG,

I did not make the assessment of the Carcano owned by Oswald, I have never handled a Carcano of any type. This assessment was made by experts who examined Oswalds rifle. They did not say that it was a fine rifle on par with a '98 Mauser, only that it was a decent rifle capable of the accuracy required to do what it did. There are also thousands of dead Ethiopians that can attest to the lethality of the Carcano rifle.

As for the "fact" that because it was a mail order rifle it was probably not zeroed, where is there any proof of that? Even if the rifle was delivered un-zeroed, Oswald definately had the knowledge, ability and opportunity to zero it in the many months that he owned it prior to JFK's assasination.

This very rifle was used, by Oswald, in an attempt to murder a former Army General by the name of Walker (I think that's the correct name) months before the Kennedy assasination. General Walker was saved by a mutton bar on the window of his study that deflected the bullet before it struck his head. Oswald would not have noticed this mutton bar at night through a back lit window. According to Oswald's wife, he confided to her about the murder attempt prior to any announcement in the media. The Carcano was obviously sited in correctly at that time.

There is absolutely no substainable evidence of anyone, other than Oswald, being involved in the assasination of JFK. All such "evidence" cited in the various conspiracy theories has come from drug addicts, criminals, know mental cases or from people who have been shown by documented evidence to be incorrect.

Get the book, it answered alot of doubts that I had regarding this crime. I am sure that it will answer alot of questions for anyone that reads it with an open mind.
 
Abruzzi...

sorry your thread was hijacked...I wasn't paying attention....mea culpa

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Ignoring all other comments here, it was reported back in '63 that Oswald was known to have visited a firing range several times, and was seen to have been shooting from a bench rest.

I assumed then, and see no reason to doubt it now, that his rifle was adequately sighted-in.

FWIW, Art
 
DC ... and others

Well, this was sort of hijacked, but I started it and I guess I can't blame people for discussing issues related to JFK that don't pertain to the quote.

What I found interesting about the quote -- especially the reference to weapons -- was that it was an articulate, very articulate, statement of the "realistic" theory of international relations -- the notion that the only guarantee of sovereignty was self defense in the form of credible deterent forces.

By 1939 the Wilsonian "idealist" approach to international relations, based upon calling the League of Nations, that era's laughable version of "911" had already shot its wad.
No one today with any credibility advocates unilateral disarmament for nations.

The notion that that is appropriate for individuals, to deal with threats to their individual person in the individual residences, is on its face even more preposterous than the idea of calling the League of Nations.


[This message has been edited by abruzzi (edited November 25, 1999).]
 
Cactus and other assassination buffs ...

I spent almost 30 years disregarding all of the conspiracy literature on JFK's assassination because I considered it simply fantastic and somehow diminished the nature of the tragedy in Dallas.

In 1993 I watched a the 1988 NOVA program, hosted by Cronkite, whic was rerun in response to the hype related to "JFK", Oliver Stone's literary approach to the assassination.

I can remember trying to summarize the NOVA program the next morning to my girlfriend. I stumbled around until I isolated the single fact that captured the entire topic for me -- they lost the brain.

That's right, although it apparently had been public knowledge for many years, no one knows where JFK's brain is.

READ THAT AGAIN SLOWLY -- In the biggest homocide in this century, the combined forces of the US government have managed to lose the single most important exhibit. Period.

National Archives says "Oh, we gave it back to Bobby in a stainless steel can." Bobby, of course, says nothing.

"Yes, we lost the brain, but hey folks we have all the facts you need on this topic. Just believe us. We're from the government."

I then watched JFK, the movie, and was stunned for the first time to see that the New Orleans prosecutor had ANY basis for prosecuting the N.O. businessman. In the 60's the guy was presented in the press as an unscrupulous publicity addict.

I then read in the space of 4 weeks some 8,000 pages of JFK assassination books, ending with "Best Evidence" the book which gives the best explanation of WHY the brain is missing -- because it would show the angle of entry.

If you go to Tom Wicker's November 24, 1963 article on the front page of the NYT's, he even then quotes the Dallas doctors as seeing an ENTRY wound in the front of JFK's throat and a LARGE EXIT wound in his back. Yes, and he also talks about someone seeing a long gun stick out of what Stanley Kubric's "Full Metal Jacket" called a "school book suppository."

Yes, Cactus, I read "Case Closed." The overriding impression the book made on me was that Posner was more interested in attacking the integrity of the assassination conspiracy advocates rather than dealing with the evidence. I did not consider the book to close anything, certainly not this case.

The most knowledgeable eyewitness of the events in Dealy Plaza, and the man who told the same story in the exact same fashion for the next 30 years, was John Connolly, who was then governor of TX and sitting in front of JFK. Connolly, no wooly headed conspiracy theorist, and an experienced hunter, knew what he heard. He heard two shots in sequence, the second of which hit him.

My own conclusion is simple. The Warren Commission Report was intended to be a placebo, and it was an effective one. We don't know what happened in Dealy Plaza now and we never will.

We do know that JFK, whatever personal foibles he may have had, was the model for modern political leadership. He didn't pander to the populace, he tried to educate and lead them.

He was a politician, yes, and calcuated what was possible before leaping into the dark. But having made the calcuations, when the moment required it, he grabbed his balls and went forward, yes, with courage.

With rare exceptions, we have been living in a land of pygmies ever since.
 
Abruzzi,

I hope this is not what you had intended to type:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Full Metal Jacket" called a "school book suppository.[/quote]

Didn't you mean "depository"?

I imagine that school books would create a lot of pain as you have described them! :) ;) :)

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
John...

"school book suppository" is a quote from the movie Full Metal Jacket.

The scene is the DI talking about how formidable Marines are to the brand new recruits....he goes on to praise LH Oswald as an example of what a determined and motivated Marine can do.

Remember, it was a Stanley Kubrick movie and I suspect it was a cheap shot of his to indicate that the DI was a stupid moron

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Not that it's really that important, but I think the quote actually came in response to a question from the DI to a recruit who had a little difficulty telling up from sideways. The intent here was simply to provide a little levity to an otherwise fairly dreary topic.

Hope everybody had a Happy Turkey day.
 
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