I took my first 223 and 9 mm loads to the firing range yesterday. I had just scoped my Smith AR and everything shot okay but shooting bags were too low and magazine rested on the bench giving me 4 inch groups. Not to my liking at all. My Beretta 92 had great accuracy with the Hornady and Berry Bullets but I'm wondering if Winchester small pistol primers are any good. As using HP-38 and out of 40 rounds had four failure to fire. I pulled them when I got home and powder was ok. Primer took a good hit but no go. I put a bipod mount on my AR last night and hope it changes my groups next time out. I'm curious of the 9 twist in the 223 because I'm shooting 50 and 55 grain sp and vmax loads under benchmark powder. Guy next to me had a bolt 223 Rem 700 and wanted to try 3 of the vmax and put all 3 in one hole.
Not so good day at th range
- Thread starter Wendyj
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g.willikers
New member
Got a sneaky suspicion that ARs were not exactly designed for shooting groups.
For doing that, the fellow with the Remington 700 probably had the right idea.
But fun is where you find it.
For doing that, the fellow with the Remington 700 probably had the right idea.
But fun is where you find it.
603Country
New member
Yep, the AR was more for the purpose of shooting groups, and individuals....
Still, rub enough money on it and you can shoot tiny target groups. It's only money...
And it appears you have excellent reloads if the Rem 700 guy was stacking em in one hole.
Still, rub enough money on it and you can shoot tiny target groups. It's only money...
And it appears you have excellent reloads if the Rem 700 guy was stacking em in one hole.
I haven't ever tried groups with it before but 4 inches was man size if need be. I'm still a little concerned if I should do away with the Winchester primers for the 9 mm. I had a bunch of 367 loads with CcI primers and have never had one fail. Does anyone on here use Winchester in hand gun. It was all they had for my first loading of the 9 mm
4 of 40 not firing is a huge number IMO , 10% failure is not good . I'd see if you have any problems in other guns with that lot of primers . If so It's time to give Winchester a call .
I'd agree that the general mil-spec AR is not the best for shooting groups . Not because they're not good shooters but more of the design is not conducive to consistent barrel harmonics . You might as well be resting the barrel on the table when resting off the handgard . My NM AR shoots 10 shot sub moa groups and my 16" chrome lined AR does right about 1 moa 5 shot groups . Both have free floated barrels . Next time out rest your bolt action on the barrel and shoot some groups and see how quick that sub moa rifle turns into a 2 moa rifle
Your barrel twist is real good for most common bullet weights for the AR . 50gr to 69gr should do very well . I've done some limited test shooting 77gr smk out of my 1-9 twist AR . It appeared to stabilized the bullet just fine out to 300yds . That was at 75 degrees outside though , I've heard when the temp drops to below freezing is when you can have problems with the heavy bullets and the 1-9 twist .
I'd agree that the general mil-spec AR is not the best for shooting groups . Not because they're not good shooters but more of the design is not conducive to consistent barrel harmonics . You might as well be resting the barrel on the table when resting off the handgard . My NM AR shoots 10 shot sub moa groups and my 16" chrome lined AR does right about 1 moa 5 shot groups . Both have free floated barrels . Next time out rest your bolt action on the barrel and shoot some groups and see how quick that sub moa rifle turns into a 2 moa rifle
Your barrel twist is real good for most common bullet weights for the AR . 50gr to 69gr should do very well . I've done some limited test shooting 77gr smk out of my 1-9 twist AR . It appeared to stabilized the bullet just fine out to 300yds . That was at 75 degrees outside though , I've heard when the temp drops to below freezing is when you can have problems with the heavy bullets and the 1-9 twist .
I do not doubt you had the experience you had.
If you are having a 10% failure to ignite on your 9mm loads,I do not believe it has to do with the quality or adequacy of the WW small pistol primer.
I've never had a problem with WW primers,andWW factory ammo works pretty well.I suggest you look for another problem.
Improper storage or contamination can degrade primers,but I would happily buy 10,000 WW small pistol primers tomorrow if I had the spare change.
On your AR accuracy,....First,I suggest getting some 20 rd mags.Much friendlier to shoot with.
The term "AR" is pretty broad. The pencil barreled,chrome bore,non-free floated M-4 clones,are not going to shoot with the bolt guns.Add a military trigger and it does not help.
I think something like 3 MOA is a military expectation of what a battle rifle has to deliver.
As your fellow with the bolt rifle confirmed,a 55 gr bullet and Benchmark load should shoot well.
Its also true that free floated,medium to heavy barreled AR's set up with just a little attention to detail,using a quality barrel,will shoot with the bolt guns for accuracy until you get to bench rest extremes.
1 MOA or less AR's are not rare.
What sort of scope mounting system did you use??.
I'd suggest the one piece ring/mount systems.IMO,theRock River is best value.
Have you grouped it with iron sights?
If you are having a 10% failure to ignite on your 9mm loads,I do not believe it has to do with the quality or adequacy of the WW small pistol primer.
I've never had a problem with WW primers,andWW factory ammo works pretty well.I suggest you look for another problem.
Improper storage or contamination can degrade primers,but I would happily buy 10,000 WW small pistol primers tomorrow if I had the spare change.
On your AR accuracy,....First,I suggest getting some 20 rd mags.Much friendlier to shoot with.
The term "AR" is pretty broad. The pencil barreled,chrome bore,non-free floated M-4 clones,are not going to shoot with the bolt guns.Add a military trigger and it does not help.
I think something like 3 MOA is a military expectation of what a battle rifle has to deliver.
As your fellow with the bolt rifle confirmed,a 55 gr bullet and Benchmark load should shoot well.
Its also true that free floated,medium to heavy barreled AR's set up with just a little attention to detail,using a quality barrel,will shoot with the bolt guns for accuracy until you get to bench rest extremes.
1 MOA or less AR's are not rare.
What sort of scope mounting system did you use??.
I'd suggest the one piece ring/mount systems.IMO,theRock River is best value.
Have you grouped it with iron sights?
At the range you might want to give those 9mm a second chance to fire. If they are contaminated they probably will still not fire.
If they do fire then perhaps the primers weren't seated all the way.
I'm just throwing stuff against the wall to see if something sticks.
Good luck and like a previous poster said if the Remington 700 shooter put three of your rounds in the same hole you're doing something good.
Good luck.
If they do fire then perhaps the primers weren't seated all the way.
I'm just throwing stuff against the wall to see if something sticks.
Good luck and like a previous poster said if the Remington 700 shooter put three of your rounds in the same hole you're doing something good.
Good luck.
I bought a one piece Burris scope mount and have a cheaper 3x9 Zeiss Terra mounted on it. I would have to believe it was the magazine resting on the bench. I didn't expect it to shoot one hole groups like the bolt action did but I took it outside with bipod and 35 yards is farthest I can shoot at home and with magazine off the ground prone they are all touching anyway. The benchmark powder seems to be doing ok in it. I loaded a few 357 mags with the Winchester and had a failure to fire in one of 14 in my smith and Wesson revolver. Primers are seated good. I think I've got a bad box or two if the winchesters are ok with everyone else. I use mostly br450 in pistol and BR-2 in my 308 and 7-08. I have always used the Winchester primers in 30-30 and husbands 45-70. No fails in the large primer. I only bought 2 boxes of these last week from local gun store. They are stored in my reloading room which is dry and clean. No damp basement. I hand primed some and primed quite a few on the press also.
I know that's right. Fortunately these are only plinking ammo. I would like to shoot it a lot more. I use Factory Gold Dots for carry. It would still be nice to watch them all go Boom. My first reloads in both of these calibers so I will chalk it up to a learning curve. This is a great forum. I started out a year and half ago loading for a 308 and now loading for many rifles and 2 hand guns. Just picked up 1000 rounds of 380 brass and going to get dies as soon as I get through issues with the 9 mm.
WendyJ said:
That may be your problem. You're supposed to seat the bullet over the powder.
AR's can be tack drivers, but they often need the same sorts of attention any military-to-target rifle conversion does if they are to do their best. For shooting off the bench, the handguard usually needs to be floated so you aren't putting pressure on the barrel anywhere with it. Resting on the magazine sure won't help. You can buy a 5 round magazine for bench shooting if this is a regular problem for you. Lots of AR shooters like to put a single-shot SLED into one of those for shooting from prone position and so you aren't touching the ground with the magazine.
9" twist should be just fine with the A-max.
Yes. Read this article:http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
I bet the guy with the 700 would like to have your load data! Sticking them in one hole is a good load and good day!
As for the WSP primers, I have had one out of 600 recently not ignite. I stuck it back in the magazine with the next batch and it fired. Factory ammo does this too so its not abnormal.
I prefer HS-6 for 9mm.
For the heavier pills in the .223 my 1/8 twist rifle likes IMR 4064 and BLC-2 But every rifle is different
As for the WSP primers, I have had one out of 600 recently not ignite. I stuck it back in the magazine with the next batch and it fired. Factory ammo does this too so its not abnormal.
I prefer HS-6 for 9mm.
For the heavier pills in the .223 my 1/8 twist rifle likes IMR 4064 and BLC-2 But every rifle is different
To the 9mm/primers part of your experience, I am not sure what the issue is, but I can say these things and be 100% honest when I say them:
I have used primers that were very fresh/new production and I have used primers that were made 30-40 years before I loaded them.
I have used Winchester, CCI, Wolf, Federal and most recently S&B primers... across 28 years at the bench.
I have also loaded up cartridge cases that were primed years before I got around to adding powder and a bullet.
And in all of that, I've loaded somewhere north of 100,000 rounds (I only started a concise log less than 10 years back) and my true primer fail-to-ignite total is somewhere under ten actual "click but no bang", no matter how many times I re-chambered and dropped a hammer on those rounds.
This is just what I have done hands-on. Some digging and searching will find guys who have done tests trying to "break down" and render primers inert, but it often ends up far more difficult than one might imagine.
The bottom line is that you having 4 out of 40 fail-to-fire is way, way outside of what I have come to expect from primers, especially Winchester.
It may very well be that you are extremely unlucky and Winchester had some very rare production problem that has (so far) gone unreported and/or uncorrected, but if I were a betting man, I would say the problem is somewhere OTHER than the primers.
But if you do figure it out, I'll be interested to hear the reason.
I have used primers that were very fresh/new production and I have used primers that were made 30-40 years before I loaded them.
I have used Winchester, CCI, Wolf, Federal and most recently S&B primers... across 28 years at the bench.
I have also loaded up cartridge cases that were primed years before I got around to adding powder and a bullet.
And in all of that, I've loaded somewhere north of 100,000 rounds (I only started a concise log less than 10 years back) and my true primer fail-to-ignite total is somewhere under ten actual "click but no bang", no matter how many times I re-chambered and dropped a hammer on those rounds.
This is just what I have done hands-on. Some digging and searching will find guys who have done tests trying to "break down" and render primers inert, but it often ends up far more difficult than one might imagine.
The bottom line is that you having 4 out of 40 fail-to-fire is way, way outside of what I have come to expect from primers, especially Winchester.
It may very well be that you are extremely unlucky and Winchester had some very rare production problem that has (so far) gone unreported and/or uncorrected, but if I were a betting man, I would say the problem is somewhere OTHER than the primers.
But if you do figure it out, I'll be interested to hear the reason.
I have purchased a couple of the Burris AR ringmounts. PIPR or PEPR or something like that.
They are maybe OK,but here is what makes me a little skeptical about them.
They have a baked on paint finish,including on the "precision" surfaces that mate with the picatinny rail.
It might not be a problem,but It bothered me.
I can't recall right now ,but seems like there was something about the cross screw and clamp that was not quite right.
The mount might work fine.It might not be the problem.
I can't even remember exactly why,But I replaced mine with Rock Rivers
They are maybe OK,but here is what makes me a little skeptical about them.
They have a baked on paint finish,including on the "precision" surfaces that mate with the picatinny rail.
It might not be a problem,but It bothered me.
I can't recall right now ,but seems like there was something about the cross screw and clamp that was not quite right.
The mount might work fine.It might not be the problem.
I can't even remember exactly why,But I replaced mine with Rock Rivers
m&p45acp10+1
New member
Are you removing the primer crimps from the 9mm cases? When I first started with 9mm I had a few that felt tight when seating primers. All had to be struck two or three times before the primer was crushed enough to light off. All were European brands of ammo. S&B was worst about it. I chucked a primer pocket reamer into my cordless screwdriver and did the primer pockets on all of my 9mm brass. The light primer strikes ended after that.
jetinteriorguy
New member
I've gone through over 5000 Winchester SPP this year and only had two issues. I kept getting FTF's in my M&P9 but they would ignite on a second or third strike. Since these were loaded when I first started using my new Lee Loadmaster I assumed my primer seating setup wasn't seating some properly. I was wrong, it finally turned out to be the striker assembly in the gun that was the problem. The only other problem I've had with the Winchester SPP's is I found one that didn't have any of the primer compound in it. I always visually inspect primers in the tray before putting the tray on the loader. I learned this from using Tula SRP's.