Not a gun owner... and not "anti" gun

G

Geared Up!

New member
I've been enjoying the thread about the woman who was not comfortable with the conversation about and company of a firearm in the room, and all y'alls advice on how to help her adjust (if she wanted to). I hold somewhat of a unique position in that I am married to a military guy, grew up in a "hunters" home, and now have a website dedicated to tactical gear and the like... but we don't own any guns, I've never touched a gun, and yes... they make me uncomfortable. However, I am not anti gun. While I do possess a fear for those who own guns for the purpose of doing harm, or who are careless in their responsibility of that gun, I have absolutely no problem with educated people possessing firearms for sport, self defense, and the like.

Now... after many years of not wanting a gun in the house, I'm starting to change my mind. Part of it comes from reading this and other forums, and part of it is a reaction to the panic of Y2K (not my panic, but the panic of others and the reactions that might occur). That is a huge topic in itself, one that I'm a bit worn out about, but the panic does exist and will cause reactions more violent in some places than others. Back to my original purpose...

As a non gun owner (with 2 boys in the house) military wife, my very supportive husband has offered to take me through a local gunhandling class... when I'm ready. I'll let you know when I'm at that point. My main fear is that after years of protecting my oldest child from any association with guns, I'd have to explain why I'm feeling differently. The reason I was so strict about my son's association with guns is because one of his friends attempted to show off by bringing him up to his dad's special hiding place where there was a gun, the other hiding place where there was the ammo, and got the special hidden key and demonstrated how they all go together. The father's reaction... "I didn't know he knew where everything was".

After this long babbling post, what I'm really asking for is all around feedback. How to I not look like a hyprocrite in my children's eyes?

Thanks in advance!
Geri Weaver


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BlackHawk Authorized Dealer (BAD) - "Better than catalog" prices & free shipping http://www.geardup.com/gearedup.htm
 
Hello Geared UP! I know exactly where you are coming from! My girl is only 4 but before I got my facts straight about guns, she knew I didnt like them and have a fear of them. It all depends on your boys ages. If they are old enough to understand then you tell them why you have different feelings, tell them the truth. When the topic came up with my daughter one day she said to me "Mommy, I thought you hated guns", I told her the truth as best I could seeing that she is so little. I said I have learned about guns, yes they are still dangerous and not for kids to touch or play with, but guns are used for other things than killing , adults use them to protect their families, some hunt (didnt refer to Bambi)and to some it is a hobby, like she collects those beanie baby things, some adults like guns. THe main thing I got in her head is that guns are not to be touched by a child and that if she were ever to see one at a friends or at school that she should first get away from it second tell me or a teacher or other parent in the house. She sees my view as best as a 4 y/o can, and I will continue to explain as she grows. Do the same with your sons, let them know how you feel, they still make you feel uncomfortable yet you are an adult and have chosen to try it in a safe atmosphere. Also tell them that you may want one of your own for your own protection. Kids can amaze you sometimes on what they think, you may be shocked to find out that they will agree with you. I dont think that they are going to think you are a hypocrite if you sit down with them and really explain. Good luck! Also good luck with trying it out! I too want to do it one day, I dont think there is anything wrong with it, and I really think its a good way to get rid of that fear, you are in a safe place and with someone that knows about guns and also knows about your fear. So all I can say is good for you! Welcome to TFL, they are all really nice here and I think you'll like it!
 
Welcome Geared UP!...

You didn't mention how old the kids are. My advice is to tell them the truth.
My father was an extremely intelligent man and one of the things I admired and respected most was that he would admit mistakes, no jive or BS covering up.
So, explain to the kids why you have changed your mind, the factors involved, the thought processes. Allow them to see that this is not just a capricious change of mind, that you thought deeply about it. Realize, this doesn't mean relinquishing control...the same rules you had concerning guns (like the incident with the friend) are still in play. One problem I have, is that with the good intentions of child safety, guns are considered like drugs...evil, no worth and owners are losers and bad people. This is a dangerous concept.

Any, be honest and open...trust me, even beyond guns, your kids will long remember and respect you for your "humaness"



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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Maybe my family was "weird" because we had guns in the house from the very beginning locked in a closet. As the kids grew up they were exposed to guns on many trips to the ranch in Medina,Tx where the greatgrandparents lived and there was always the obligatory rifle shoot between cousins to pass the time of day. One cousin always had his .22 lever action Marlin in his truck. When the kids rode with him on casual outings around the different pastures the rifle was there, the kids were there and no problem was ever there. They just accepted guns as tools for specific purposes.

Now the kids are adults. Neither of them have ever harmed anyone with a gun although both of them own guns in their private residences. I guess we did it right. I do remember a conversation one day with my son that went something like.... "How many guns do you have, Momma?" I answered, "How many computers do you have?" He is a computer freak with a room full of them; his Momma is a gun freak with a house full of them!
 
There are several excellent conversations about kids and guns here at TFL. I suggest that everyone hit the Search Engine and look for "children" or "kids" I would include "safety" or "education" or "house" to narrow the search a bit.

My comments can be found in several threads.

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-Essayons
 
Many thanks for the feedback so far...
The boys are 2 1/2, and 11 1/2. Quite a difference, yes.
Also note, the youngest's father is military, and will have a completely different upbringing then I had provided for the oldest. The youngest already has an appreciation and respect for firearms ("no touch, big ouchie"). We have brought him to gun shows, and he sees the holsters & gear that travel through here.

The oldest, on the other hand, had that one experience with his "friend" and saw my reaction in that I now visit every new friends home and (politely as possible) inquire about the possibility of guns in the home, if my child is to spend any time there at all. We are in NC, and I have found that more people own guns then not.

My own upbringing involved a father who hunted for sport, and only allowed my brother to handle and learn about the rifles in the house. I was a girl, therefore not allowed to know/learn/touch. My brother enjoyed the favoritism, and was barely scolded when he shot me in the butt with a B-B-gun because I wouldn't listen to him. He's a cop now... scary thought.

Anyway, the military husband makes the process a little easier on one end, and much more difficult on the other hand. Can you imagine the reaction..."You hated guns until you married HIM"... from my oldest?

I agree with the opinion of "guns are dangerous" and not "guns are bad". Unfortunately, the main message that kids in school get from their friends is "guns give you power".

Geri Weaver

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BlackHawk Authorized Dealer (BAD) - "Better than catalog" prices & free shipping http://www.geardup.com/gearedup.htm
 
Digital mis-fooglement. I'll correct it.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 12, 1999).]
 
Geri (Gearedup),

I think you've gotten some wonderful advice so far. I agree with the general trend and think it shows we have a lot of people here whose heads are screwed on straight.

Personally, I don't think it hurts to sit down with a kid old enough to appreciate the situation (as your boy is) and explain that you have learned something and acquired new information which has changed your mind.

I don't think this situation is any different because it involves guns than it would be for any other fundamental belief. Being an intelligent, mature person, you have seen the information and changed your mind after carefully analyzing the situation and the facts. Nothing wrong with that. I believe your son can respect that. It will teach him the importance of proper thought processes.

Best wishes to you and your family.
 
GearedUp,

First off, welcome to TFL!
Now to the meat... Before my husband and I were married, I had never been around guns and my 4 y/o daughter hadn't either. I wasn't for or against them, I was just uneducated. I had always wanted to learn how to shoot but hadn't bothered to get informed until my husband came along.

It made me uncomfortable at first when I found out he was a gun-nut, until he took me shooting and I saw what fun it was, and learned that a firearm is merely a tool. I soon went out and bought my own gun to keep in my daughter and I's apartment, and had quite a bit of explaining to do to her as to why it was there.

She's a very perceptive child, so I decided to be up front with her. I showed her the weapon, took it apart in front of her and then put it back together, then explained that they were dangerous and the usual "don't touch this or else..." cardinal rules...

Now that we are married, she is 6 1/2 and is very used to the guns being in the house. When she's a little older, we plan on taking her shooting so she can see what it's like. The guns are commonplace to her, and are not a temptation.

I'd say, just be honest with your kids, especially the oldest one. The 2 y/o may have to be watched more closely, but I truly think that if guns (and other no-no's) are commonplace, they are much less of a temptation to a child than if they are kept hush-hush. My daughter is allowed to touch our guns (w/ supervision of course) and is allowed to hold them (unloaded of course) in order to satisfy her curiosity. We go over the gun safety rules with her frequently as well, to drill them into her still-malleable little head. (she gets excited whenever we make a new acquisition and enjoys going to the gunstore with us)

Good luck with your situation (sorry for my rambling commentary) :)

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"...What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?... Fight, and you may die, run and you'll live, at least a while. And dying, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for just one chance, to tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!!!"
 
Geared Up, if your oldest is 11 1/2, he should be going with you and your husband for that training you mention. That is plenty old enough to learn firearms safety, and if he had such a background you could drop the inquisition about guns in the houses of his friends.

That interested me, by the way, because that actually happened to me once, the mother of a child one of my kids played with came to ask the same thing you mentioned, did I have any guns in the house. Since she was being rational about it I dropped the answer I would usually have given and told her, yes, several. Were they under lock and key, unloaded, separated from the ammo, etc? Heck no, I laughed, they wouldn't be much good like that, would they?

She then proceeded to tell me I would have to do this and that or her son wouldn't be able to come to our house, and I told her I guessed that would be up to her, but nobody was going to tell me what to do in my own home. Then I faced something similar to what you're looking at, trying to explain to my kids why their new friend couldn't come to our house. It wasn't real easy. See, they just couldn't understand the problem no matter how much I explained it. They knew how many guns were in our house, they knew where they were, they knew they were loaded, how was any of that supposed to be a problem and how did it make any difference to her?

Your son went along with his showoff friend for the same reason the friend was showing off in the first place, because the gun involved was "forbidden fruit", if it's all supposed to be ever so secret then they will seek it out. And trust me, they will find it. My kids could not care less about my guns when they are in the house. They like them fine when we all go to the range together, but most times I go alone because the kids have other things they'd rather do!!!

Take the mystery out of guns, for yourself and your kids, learn to use them safely and properly, and you have little fear of accidents because the kids no longer CARE where the gun(s) are, have no interest in handling them, and know if they want to all they have to do is ask.

When I was about 12, I spent a lot of time at a friend's house for a year or so, playing in his room and so forth, and one day we were talking about guns for some reason and he mentioned he had a full-auto weapon, loaded, under his bed. Given my knowledge of him by then, I had no reason to doubt that, the subject just hadn't come up before, and neither of us had any interest in taking it out and playing with it, so I never saw it and the whole thing might have been a lie. I don't think it was. We just didn't care, it was no big deal. If it had been hidden from him, he would have found it, but it wasn't so he just left it sit.
 
Geared Up, welcome to TFL. Hope you enjoy it here.
I was raised around guns, and when I became a father (19 year old daughter now), I knew it was going to be different for her than for me. My dad was a bird hunter, period, and had no rifles or handguns (at least that's what he told me-"pistols are for killing people.") I discovered that he did indeed own a pistol when he lit out of the house one day wearing one after recieveing a call that some poachers were on his land.
At any rate, I've always had a loaded handgun near at hand, and stored the rest in a good safe. Early on, I "de-mystified" guns for my daughter. I showed some to her, and explained what they were, and what they were used for. I think the thing that made the biggest impression was when she was about 4, I took her to a safe shooting area. While she stayed in the car, I shot at a 1 gallon milk jug filled with colored water using a .357 Mag pistol. Of course, it burst with a spectacular spray. I then told her that this is what could happen to ANYTHING which is hit by a bullet from a gun-destruction.
Since then, she has been shooting with me a few times, but hasn't really shown any particular desire to become a "gunnie." That's OK, her tastes lie elsewhere-she's a helluva singer, songwriter, and guitarist, so...but she also firmly believes in the RKBA.
Educate-be truthful-kids can smell a fib while it's still formulating in one's mind. Above all, teach them to think logically about EVERYTHING-the mind is one's primary weapon against all of life's vicisitudes. Get 'em while they're very young, too. By age 6, the value system of a child is formed, by age 12, it's become solidified, and from that point on, only an event of a very traumatic nature will make them change their values.
Again, welcome, and I hope you find your stay here pleasant and worthy of your time. I'm sure you will.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard
The Shottist's Center forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
 
G'day to you & your Family ! :D
I have 2 children, a 9 y.o boy & a 5 y.o girl.
Both have "handled" all my handguns & get to see them when I'm cleaning. If they ask to touch, I always remind them to let me prove the gun as being unloaded & to point it in a safe direction away from people.
They really get a kick out of me bringing home a "new" one & ask straight away if they can "have a go" :)
To them a gun is something Daddy takes to the Club & punches holes in targets or blows away Bowling Pins with ;)
Anyway back to the original question of how to introduce guns to your children.....
Sit them down & explain that both Mum & Dad would like to get into shooting as a pastime & that as an added "bonus" the gun can be kept at home for "protection" while Dad isn't there.
I know the protection slant will bring forth a whole lot of other questions but you & you alone will have to face those(if any) when you come to them...
An 11 1/2 year old is in this day & age is probably the equivilent of a 16 y.o(in general worldliness) when I was a lad (I'm 36)
Sorry I can't help further but as I think you already know this one's gonna be as tough to explain as the "facts of life".
Lots of luck ....

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
 
Thank you for all the warm welcomes and great advice. I may need to add just a bit of information here. My main concern, as you can tell, is for my oldest child. We have every intention of raising the youngest to have full respect and proper fear of firearms.

The oldest is a special concern for several reasons.
1)He has been through trauma over a long and difficult court battle in which he was given way too much power and responsibility for his young age.
2)His biological father is... to put it nicely... not the most upstanding citizen, and has been involved in some very dangerous situations that I can't be sure haven't been witnessed, or bragged about in front of my son. and
3)He has a problem with controlling his anger (yes, we are in counseling and will be for a while) as a result of all of the above, and finally
6) He has been diagnosed with A.D.D. since age 4 and is extremely impulsive, even when he clearly understands the difference between right and wrong. Please, no lectures here... that is another forum. You'll just have to believe that I am a responsible parent who has researched ADD and has gotten the very best medical advice available.

So... with all that said, doesn't it seem like I need to be extremely cautious with the approach, education, and availability of this proposed firearm adopted into my home? This is a very intelligent child. His IQ tests and school testing results are off the chart, and at the same time he has put himself into the clothes dryer "just to see if I could fit". Funny? Yes... and dangerous.

Yes... I will discuss it with his counselor. No... I will not discuss it with his father (the can of worms opened would be a huge mess). I agree with the idea of taking him for training as well... he has been in scouting (not a shameless plug) and has shot a B-B-Gun. He admires and respects his step father for the person and the soldier that he is. We do not keep secrets in this house, and I refuse to lie to my children in any situation. With all that said, I am open to more feedback.

Many thanks for all that you have given so far.
Geri Weaver

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BlackHawk Authorized Dealer (BAD) - "Better than catalog" prices & free shipping http://www.geardup.com/gearedup.htm
 
An interesting set of circumstances your dealing with, one thing ......instead of raising him with the "proper fear", try to raise him with the "proper respect", for firearms.......and I would like to add that if you even remotely think there might be a tragedy waiting to happen if you introduce your child to firearms, especially considering the circumstances....then dont...fubsy.
 
My father showed me the destruction that firearms could cause when I was four years old. I can still remember the lesson vividly. He selected targets such as coffee cans. A couple of months later he took me to a dove shoot where I played retriever. He showed me what happened to the doves and told me that firearms could do the same for people. I cannot remember a time when I did not where the firearms were in my home and the ammunition for same. Not once did I play with a real firearm. Neither did my best friend who also had access to multiple firearms from early childhood. We were by no means saints, in fact we were hellions, but firearms were big juju not toys.

Which leads me to my one of my pet grievances: toy guns. They are the prime factor in teaching kids to play with real guns, in my opionion. As such, they are dangerous as hell. In the past, I have occasionally watched friends' children-they don't bring play weapons on my property.

Anecdote: I was over at my girlfriend's house one day when her son was about ten years old. He was arguing with his mother about her taking his BB gun away for shooting at a mockingbird. Knowing me for the gun afficiando (fanatic?) that I am, he asked,"Byron, would you take my BB gun away for this?" He turned to his mom triumphantly when I answered,"Of course not, Jason..." Then his eyes got as big as half dollars when I continued,"I'd have made you eat the bird." ;)
 
The toy gun issue...
I have never allowed toy guns, knives, etc, to be part of play time (and this has caused some unwelcomed feedback from family members at Christmas & birthdays). The only "gun" that has ever been allowed to be played with is one of those super soaker water cannons that does not remotely resemble a gun. However, children can make leggo's into guns if they have the imagination.

The "home security" isn't an issue. My son's original home was an area that was no stranger to break-ins, etc., and before my most recent career as "webqueen" of Geared Up!, I worked as a home security specialist. My children are used to hearing me talk about break ins, etc. We own 4 dogs (from weiner to meaner) and have a pretty darn good home security system.

I would imagine that my son's counselor would provide a great sounding board for when and if I should introduce a firearm into my house. In the mean time, I think teaching without immediate home introduction would be the most logical and safest step.

Do any of you agree? Disagree?

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BlackHawk Authorized Dealer (BAD) - "Better than catalog" prices & free shipping http://www.geardup.com/gearedup.htm
 
Geared UP; Just consider the following: per the annual stats covering such items, (FBI, Criminal Justice reports, Highway accident reports, etc.) for every death where a gun was involved, there are approx. 41 or 42 deaths where automobiles were involved.
Yet everyone drives a car, and it is not considered "strange" for a family to have two or three cars.
Explain to your children that the gun issue hysteria is political, and intended only to disarm the people rather than fighting crime. That might help the older children to understand your change of attitude.
 
Geared-up,

Just as an additional data point for you.... I have 7 year old twin boys, both with ADHD and one with some interesting anger issues. For the first 5 years of their lives, my guns were buried out of sight. I never took them out at all.

Now I am back home in Texas and have started shooting pretty regularly. So this was a real issue for me. These two are a hand full in the best of conditions, I had a hard time seeing them around firearms at all.

But a number of folks here have mentioned taking away the mystery and laying down the law as to how they are used. We started very very slowly and controlled. BB pistol in the garage. ONE mistake.. the session stopped; COLD. I gave no leaway here. A mistake ment the end of range time. (Actually worked better when one made the mistake and the other brother got to keep shooting ;)) But it worked. They learned the rules. I tried tricking them into breaking some of the baisics; handing them a gun that was not broken open. They would not accept the gun. We moved up to "their own gun" a single shot BB rifle. Same rules apply. Violate any spirit of the "Four Gun Rules" you give up your right to shoot for that session.

It has made a big impact on my boys. We still battle daily with the ADHD on all types of issues. But when it comes to the firearms, we have no problems.

With a lot of concern... I took them to "the big range" to shoot "real bullets" a few weeks ago. (a bolt action single shot .22) They were perfect little gentlemen. Even getting wired with the success of their shooting (impressed the heck out of me how well they shot) they followed every single rule.

Our ADHD counselor tells us disipline is critical to our boys success. The firearms disipline is proving that to me. They can stay under control if they have the internal desire and drive. Shooting is giving that to them.

Best of luck to you and your son. I hope you get to experience that look of unbridled joy that I saw when Don nailed his first 10x bullseye. And the determination of his brother Trey to duplicate it. And elation when he DID! :)

Cheers,


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Bubba
IDPA# A04739
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It is long been a principal of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully. - Jeff Cooper
 
As one who has owned and played with about a million toy guns as a child and never used a real gun on anyone and pray to God I never have to, I don't see the harm.

We almost adopted a boy when he was seven months old, but the thing fell through. He did, however, live with us (and was treated as ours) about half the time for many years. During that time he had and played with toy guns of many sorts. He was also taught to shoot and handle guns safely at age seven by me.

As far as I can tell, the toy guns had no more adverse effect on Josh than they did on me and all the other kids I played with. We all had them and played with them almost daily. I honestly think it's all in the attitudes impressed on children by the parents.

My brother played with the toy guns right along with me, but he isn't a shooter and doesn't own any guns. Go figure.

Neither of my parents shot or owned guns. Yet they allowed me to play cowboy, etc. with the toys and they bought me a BB gun when I was about 8, and .22 rifle when I was 14--I had been shooting with relatives since age seven. It was clearly understood I was to be safe and responsible. Once I had proved myself, they trusted me to be so.

One or two examples are not a "study," but I have a hard time accepting that toy guns make killers. It's not the toys, it's attitudes and environment. In short, teaching and instilling proper values is the most important factor.
 
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