Not a bad view--for a liberal

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Ulfilas

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Got this article from the Boston Phoenix off the HK-L list. Having been written by an anti-gun liberal, it's not bad.

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/features/99/11/25/LFI.html

Don't let the title or the first paragraph throw you off. It sounds like this fella got some quality insight into what goes through our minds whenever it comes to using deadly force in lawful self-defense.

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Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.
 
Ulfilas, thanks - excellent article. I've had an abbreviated LF-1 course, and Massad Ayoob is outstanding at expressing the essence of self defense, IMHO.

I thought Lenny the psychiatrist explained it rather well: "Evil exists, and I want to be able to survive it." Well put, Lenny.

And, then there is the gun bigot:

"Not everyone, of course, is comfortable that it exists. 'I would like to see exactly what they do up there,' says John Rosenthal, founder of the Boston-based Stop Handgun Violence." - golly, John. Do you think this is a conspiracy? Maybe you could actually go someday, but that would probably be uncomfortable, right?

And, another inciteful quote from John:

"As Stop Handgun Violence's John Rosenthal puts it, 'Ayoob says he's training law-abiding citizens. But he could be training a law-abiding citizen who is planning a mass shooting. There are 900 new felons every year. There have been eight mass shootings in seven months, many by people without criminal records in the past.'" - you see, John, you just don't get it, do you? You're worried that one of the thousands of students could actually become a mass murderer. But, you don't give a rat's *** that the rest of the students are now prepared to defend human life - and, some of Massad's students have done just that. To those of us familiar with such training, it sounds rather absurd that a nutcase would pursue such training anyway. Possible, yes. But Massad and others certainly don't have a portion of the course devoted to showing how to mow down groups of human beings. With John's logic, we wouldn't want to teach anyone to read, because one of the students could then learn how to build a bomb ...

The bulk of this article is, IMHO, a fine example of self defense philosophy, and I'm going to use it in a speech later this month. Thanks again.



[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited December 01, 1999).]
 
Not a bad view? I dunno boys, maybe it's because I missed my nap and I'm cranky, but I got p!$$ed at paragraph one and was boiling in my own vitriol by time I finished it.

It seemed to me that Wright took every chance he could to paint us and our lifestyle as loony. It's long, but here's what I wrote him and the horse he rode in on:

"Sir:

This is a copy of a Letter to the Editor re: your article.

Editor:

The article "Finishing school - The New Hampshire seminar to take when you absolutely, positively need to kill someone tomorrow by Chris Wright" was absolutely scary.

Not Mr. Ayoob, or what he does, or the citizens taking that course. It is absolutely scary that someone like Chris Wright is walking around loose. One wonders, with his current liberal mindset, how he has survived this long.

While he correctly reports the defense mindset, he puts the usual liberal spin on the basic right to defend you and yours and exposes his distrust of his fellow citizens, to wit:

“But it's difficult not to, not when you know you're about to be surrounded by armed citizens, alone, in the middle of the wilderness.”
Hello? He would rather be surrounded by armed criminals, alone, in the middle of the wilderness? I doubt if this class of people have the fear of the law hanging over THEIR heads.

"In many ways, LFI isn't a class in killing people. It's a class in NOT killing them.
Ayoob finds himself in the CURIOUS [my emphasis] position of believing the best way to prevent gun violence is to teach people how to commit it."
Ye Gods, it's a class on how to successfully defend your life, as stated above, without having the wrath of society descend upon you because you survived instead of "that poor, misunderstood unfortunate". I guess to the liberal mind, it WOULD be "curious" to think of defending yourself.

"I've never held a gun before, let alone fired one, and having the thing in my hand gives me the jitters. I grasp it as if it were trying to escape, gripping so hard my knuckles seem about to pop through the skin. I hold in my hand the power over life and death. Like an avenging angel. A GOD."
Jesus Christ! [no pun intended}, what is the matter with this man? Again, the liberal spin that a gun is evil incarnate and somehow ALIVE. Does he feel the same way when he picks up a butcher knife? The first time I picked up a gun, I admired the heft and workmanship of metal and wood. Whose mindset would you prefer?

"I'm not planning on shooting anyone. I mean, who plans for such contingencies [it's called situational awareness, sometimes the difference is whether you live or die] -- where to put the bullet, what to say to "the archetype of the beast," how to beat the murder rap?"
More spin. NO ONE who is not a violent criminal plans on shooting anyone. You shoot to defend you and yours, period. Do not try to kill me and mine and I will leave you alone, no matter what kind of gun I may be carrying. BEAT THE MURDER RAP? Notice how he makes no distinction between Murder One and justifiable self-defense? What would he prefer to say to "the archetype of the beast"
-- "PLEASE, don't hurt me?".

"The Lethal Force Institute is kind of a crazy idea. Or at least a very American idea. Nowhere else on earth is the ideal of armed self-defense etched so firmly into the social contract. Every American has the license to kill."
What is the color of the sky where this man comes from? Ask all those defenseless people in Africa who were hacked to death with machetes, or those in Bosnia who stood there facing the ditch if they wouldn't have wanted that "firmly etched" right of self defense. License to kill? Is this man a James Bond fantasizer? Evidently the only ones "licensed to kill" were the FBI and BATF types at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

I suggest that Mr. Wright be less suspicious about legally armed and trained citizens and concern himself more with the attitude of a government who fears it's people having arms.

Now, when will we see a similarly slanted article about the FBI shooting school at Quantico, Va.?

Yours, etc."

I can go through virtually every paragraph and write up a counter argument -- the article is riddled with his sophistry and lies.

I've also saved a copy, not because of the self-defense (I will get Ayoob's books), but as a classic media liberal spin document.

Excuse, me, I gotta go barf now.


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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
Hmm..."black flak trousers"? Ayoob wears bomb squad gear to classes? Or did the effete liberal somehow fall under the impression that BDU pants are shrapnel-resistant?
 
I've done LFI-I (and -II thru -IV). The article is interesting and accurate. Oatka's comments about the liberal spin is generally correct, but misses a greater point: an anti-gun liberal took the course and LEARNED SOMETHING...and contrary to his own biased fears and bigotry and snide comments, he learned to protect life and got a solid look at the CORRECT view of firearms. The author will be reeling from the experience for the next couple years, as he is forced to integrate the truth about self-defense with his liberal "guns are satan incarnate" views. I'd bet that within two years he'll want a defensive firearm of his own.

As for John Rosenthal's comment "I would like to see exactly what they do up there"...GO! Take the course! It's just a few days, and Massad would probably wave the fee for him too.

While the article includes some offensive comments, it's probably a good thing to hand to an "anti", as it gets the correct points across in detail while speaking the liberal's language...and thus they may see the error of their ways.
 
Considering that the article was written by an anti, I thought it was very good. I wasn't very comfortable with his, "how to shoot someone and get away with it" comments, but other than that, I think it did a good job of describing a liberal anti-gunner coming to grips with the idea of defending oneself, if necessary. I also appreciated the way that he portrayed Ayoob. He could have made Ayoob sound like some sort of nut. Instead he was honest about Ayoob's views on the use of lethal force.

If all antis were like this guy, the debate would be much more cordial! Do you think we could talk Sarah Brady into taking the course?
 
Well, this is the second time I have ranted about the media's liberal spin, only to read that it wasn't so bad. "What am I missing?", sez I.

OK, time for a self-examination session -- Am I being overly sensitive about these articles? I've had my nap and, in the immortal words of John Hinckley, "I'm MUCH better now".[g]

I reread the article, twice. A well-crafted piece of journalism, but even the FIRST sentence still got my bile going: "Thanks to the Second Amendment it is legal to own a handgun in America." as if somebody had screwed up and created a loophole. Also the emphasis on that Greatest of Evils, THE HANDGUN. He should have said firearms, which is more accurate, even if it was still a slap. Why didn't he? He's set the agenda and the tone in the first sentence. Damn, he IS good.

At the end, I was still mad at the constant sniping and overall tone -- worthy of a Josef Goebbels Award.

I will grudgingly allow that this may be a piece to be shown to another liberal in our defense -- a reverse spin of our own that is akin to the current anti ploy of starting out "I'm a gun owner" and then parroting the HCI line. Grudgingly.

However, at NO point did I see where he was
questioning his own beliefs. The nearest he came to that was his statement "I, for one, am dumbstruck. Not to mention exhausted, confused, and a little depressed.". But, IMHO, that came after watching the morgue film and hearing Ayoob talk about not shooting a deer. (A subliminal snipe at hunting, to boot.)

I wish Ayoob had expanded on his statement "If you do not value life you have no right to possess the power to destroy it." by adding "nor to impose your standards on anyone else".

Finally, I find it passing strange that we can be grateful when we are damned with such faint praise.

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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
Oatka--your view is legit. Mr. Wright still has a liberal mindset, something that he's been working on for at least a couple of decades--don't expect him to embrace more reasonable conservative views overnight. It would be nice if that happened, but accumulated garbage and entrenched liberalism have something in common--both take time to clean up.

I reached the same conclusion ctdonath did. At least the fella looked into the matter himself, rather than being content with his own myths.

jth

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Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.
 
Well, this is getting interesting. I just got an email from Chris, as follows:

"Reply to: RE: Finishing school . . . Please call 617-xxx-xxxx [my deletion] to verify this as a letter to the editor. Thanks."

I replied: "I didn't write that Letter to the Editor for printing purposes --
more of a spleen-venting. However, they are free to do so. Usually out-of-town letters get short shrift, as do long, polemic ones.

For an interesting discussion about your article, check out [the URL for this site]

This is a pro-gun message board, and I seem to be one of the few raising Hell there, the others give you a qualified OK. I still don't, but will admit to your excellent journalistic skills.

Call you in a little while."

Film at 11.


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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
Oatka, I got the same reply. Shrug.

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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
 
I understand the sensitivity about some of the article. And, at the risk of seeming the naive fool, I simply appreciate a liberal actually taking the time to learn about this issue, and especially in such a rigorous way - it takes time for Ayoob's course, and it has some significant mental twists and turns.

I'm just optimistic enough to believe that if more anti-self defense people began to learn about the RKBA, if they would consider the sometimes complex sides of a self defense philosophy, and if they would actually take such a course ... well, then I think we could find a lot more common ground. It is their towering ignorance that I personally find so baffling and frustrating.

So, I'm willing to take feeble 'wins' as wins, and work to try and bring such people around all the way. It's a damn steep, uphill battle as it is.
 
I have the same take as Oatka and Coin..

Remember the first line " Thanks to the
Second Amendment it is legal to own a handgun in America


He implicitly blames the 2nd Amendment for allowing gun crimes to occur.

So what if he then takes a real life course in the where for and what for. The man still believes the 2nd A allows the **** to happen. So, lets give him a revocation of the 2ndA...we law abiding citizens give up the guns. Now we are faced with a BG who didn't....either we are meat for dinner, or we fudged and kept a gun....we defend ourselves...we are still screwed.....You kept a gun!!!! Thats worse than if he raped or killed you. Or, you did give up your guns, and you are raped or killed and the cops tell your family "we are looking for him, and when we find him, he'll go to jail" Golly, mom and dad are dead but the BG goes to jail for 3 yrs...thats a comfort....praise the Lord!

Its a complete bull**** pap tome that means crap. He offers nothing, absolutely nothing no solutions or contingencies in return. The guy is a city bred punk who thinks his socialist beliefs extend to biology and human nature. He couldn't find a logical or analytical thought if it tore his nose off.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Sic transit gloria mundi. Referencing the above note that I got an email request to call the Phoenix, I had hopes of talking to Chris and perhaps get in a few pro-gun comments, but, alas, it was not to be.

A bored lady answered the phone, I verified that I wrote the letter and mentioned that I didn't think out of towners would be printed.
She said "it depends upon the content".

Last night I got another email from Juanita(sp?) requesting my city and state, so they may just print it. That would be a revelation to me as I didn't think these liberals would print ANYTHING counter to their Grand Scheme.

On the other hand, maybe they needed an address to send to the ninjas. (sardonic [g])

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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
As an LFI graduate also, the article
was a reasonable portrayal of the
actual course.

One problem with RKBA people is the absolutist
mentality that leads to tirades if a person
doesn't totally convert.

The article was good small step to present
a quality experience to the general public.
Maybe some people on the edge will think
about it and take it or a similar course.

Antis work in cutting away your rights
incrementally. Why can't RKBA people
realize we can fight for them incrementally,
like getting a shall issue bill.

Instead unless every state becomes Vermont
and every writer totally supports Vermont
style carry - people have fits.

Very stupid - both strategically and tactically.
 
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