non sporting shotgun issue

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woody wood

New member
so has anyone know of the results from the atf/batf study on shotguns that was suppose to be done on may 1st? maybe im wrong on the date? whats the latest? hoping it fades away so i can get another saiga shotgun or something else when the prices drop down a bit due to speculation
 
May 1st was the deadline for comments to be submitted. ATF must now evaluate those comments and from there, they may decide to do nothing, to do another study, to issue a proposed regulation for further comment, etc.

Normally the process could take several months to a year. I suspect that this time it will go faster because I have the suspicion that ATF leadership is already committed to this course of action.
 
The Saiga, as imported, won't be affected. Go read the study.

Now, the conversions, the trench gun reproductions, and generally every other "tactical" shotgun out there might be affected, but the S12 as it crosses our borders is just fine- whatever would make you think it would be?
 
techno-you are correct,the saiga does come into the country unconverted as my first one was-sportster style.it is magazine feed.i figured they would gripe about that.i will have to reed more of the bill
 
The study they published (it isn't a bill, it's a study) says they see no difference between a detachable box magazine and a fixed tube magazine. The ATF reasons that speedloaders exist for the tube mags, and both can be reloaded at about the same speed (the Saiga's mag doesn't swap out nearly as fast as some people think it does... it's one area where the AK design does not lend itself well to shotshells).

The study lists the criteria the ATF uses, and the only mag related one is that of magazine capacity, and 5 rounds is considered "sporting."

The big thing will be what they decide- if they clamp down on non-sporting shotguns, the S12 will still be OK so long as it is stock, and other guns like the 870 Tactical will suddenly also be problematic.
 
The big thing will be what they decide- if they clamp down on non-sporting shotguns, the S12 will still be OK so long as it is stock, and other guns like the 870 Tactical will suddenly also be problematic.
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I thought the study was focused on importations, though. Wouldn't this still not affect the Remington shotguns?
 
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I thought the study was focused on importations, though. Wouldn't this still not affect the Remington shotguns?
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The problem is that shotguns are not covered by section 922r, which allows for nonsporting features on domestically produced (as determined by parts count) rifles. ALL shotguns, both foreign and domestic made, are only made legal if they are for a sporting purpose. Up to now, the ATF hasn't enforced this in light of anything beyond importation, but if they are going to harp on the sporting purpose clause in regards to shotguns, there's no real way for it to avoid falling on even the domestic ones.

Bartholomew Roberts has written lengthy posts on here about this, and it appears he is correct- the concern re: this study is not so much in regards to the S12; it's considered sporting anyway. It will catch some "trench gun" repros from China, but that's not of major concern (it isn't a huge part of the market). The real concern is the "unintended consequences" from the attention paid to shotguns re: sporting purposes. If they decide to ride this hard, which they could, we'd see a real issue with the legality of a bunch of shotguns that up until now have been ignored; that 870 Tactical residing in my safe could very easily require registration as a destructive device.
 
Basically, it works like this - by law, any firearm with a bore greater than 0.50" in diameter (i.e. most shotguns, imported or domestic) is a destructive device that requires registration under the NFA. Shotguns are exempted from this IF the Attorney General determines that they have a "suitable sporting purpose."

One of the problems is that while we know what the "sporting purposes" test for imported rifles and imported handguns are, there is no test for imported shotguns. The stated purpose of this study is to establish a "sporting purposes" test for shotguns. This study takes the view that a wide range of accessories for shotguns do not have a suitable sporting purpose.

This is a big concern because once it doesn't have a sporting purpose for importation purposes, it doesn't have a sporting purpose for domestic purposes either. And in the few examples in the past when the ATF banned a shotgun from importation under the sporting purposes test, they also made possession of the domestic equivalent of that shotgun subject to NFA regulations.

The particularly scary result of this is that the extension tube on my 18" Remington 870 would not only turn my otherwise plain pump shotgun into a destructive device; but even if I removed the magazine extension to avoid the rule, I would still need to register the extension itself or destroy it to avoid violating the NFA. And constructive posession rules would be a nightmare... if a flashlight makes a shotgun an NFA weapon, than the same nylon buckle and Surefire G2 I have for my AR15 (completely legal) could be constructive possession of an NFA weapon if I also own any shotgun with a bore greater than 0.50".

Hell, given past ATF rulings on shoestrings, owning a roll of duct tape, a shotgun and a flashlight all together might be constructive possession of an NFA weapon.
 
Ok, I've re-read the ATF study, read Bart's andTechno's posts twice.

But it still seems you are telling me that the ATF is looking to ban domestic manufactured firearms rather than blocking imported as the study is examining for sporting purpose. Like the ATF will expand a restriction from the S12 (theoretically) to the Remington 870 Police with mag extension even if the long gun is manufactured in the United States.
 
WeedWacker, what the study proposes to do is establish a "sporting purposes" test for the importation of shotguns. However few people realize that domestic shotguns are also subject to a "sporting purposes" test if they have a bore greater than 0.50".

In the past three times ATF has banned a shotgun from importation via sporting purposes, they have also banned the domestic equivalent. So based on both past history and basic logic, it seems very probable that whatever sporting purposes test ATF adopts will ultimately be applied to domestic shotguns as well. If they adopt the test proposed in this study, then the Saiga-12 (as imported) is OK; but a Remington 870 with mag extension will become a destructive device as would a single-shot NEF 12ga. with an attached light.
 
Thanks for the heads up Glenn. I am the new guy here and like the forum so far. My concern is the "Sporting Purpouse" thing. 2a does not state how to use our firearms. Regs passed by the BATF are not laws which can only be passed by congress. I can offer many differnt definintions of Sporting which differ with the ATF's definition.
 
Back in the 80's, there was a big discussion on the basis of NFA weapons. There was a belief that the 2nd Amendment would allow citzens to own any weapon that the military possessed as long it was not bigger that 50 cal. In our research, I seem to remember a case that actually went to the highest court about a short barrel shotgun being legal because the army had cut down shotguns in both world wars shorter that 18". The case, I think was by Brown and failed because he did not make it to the courtroom in time.

It was thought at the time that Brown would have ruled if it had been finished and short barrel shotguns would have been legal. Had this happened, think of the laws in place now would not be legal. The price of NFAs would collapse, except as collector items. And all the discussion about shotguns would never happen. The military has shotguns for combat, so citzens should be able to possess non sporting shotguns under the 2nd amendment
 
I wonder the affect of the Project Gunrunner scandal on the ATF's ruling. I see two options:

1. ATF will feel they are already under the microscope, the last thing ATF wants to do is kick the beehive again.....or

2. ATF will feel that gun rights advocates are already so mad at them it can't get any worse (like punching another small hole in the Titanic).

I do wish that I had bought a bunch of Saiga's a couple of years ago when I could have gotten all I wanted for $500 a piece and sold them today for $800 a piece :mad:.
 
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