Non-lead ammunition
- Thread starter Lohman446
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CalmerThanYou
New member
I subscribe to Recoil Magazine, they just put out issue 1 of a sister publication called Carnivore. Caters to the hunting crowd mostly. In the first issue is a pretty comprehensive article on lead free ammunition.
Check it out, I bet it would be helpful.
Check it out, I bet it would be helpful.
Used properly copper is effective. But it behaves much differently than lead bullets. Generally speaking it is best to drop down at least 1 and maybe 2 bullet weights lighter than you'd normally use.
*Copper bullets retain 100% or very near that after impact vs 20% to 80% for lead based bullets. It takes a pretty tough conventional bullet to retain 80% of it's weight. As a result you don't need to use a bullet nearly as heavy. A 130 gr copper bullet will give you about the same penetration and do the same damage as a 180 gr lead bullet that loses 25% of its weight at impact.
*Copper bullets need to impact at much faster speeds in order to expand. Most lead bullets will expand down to 1800 fps and many as slow as 1600 fps. Copper needs at least 2000 fps at impact and 2200 is better.
*Copper works very well at close to moderate ranges on even very large game. Often with great results when using calibers and bullet weights normally considered too small.
*Not the best choice at extended ranges where bullet speed has dropped below about 2000 fps. But most will retain that speed out to 350-400 yards which is as far as most will shoot anyway.
*Most of the time when you read of copper failing it is because people try to use the same bullet weights they would normally use and don't shoot them fast enough. If you look at recovered copper bullets with impact speeds below 2200 fps expansion is poor. Below 2000 fps and you essentially have a FMJ.
I load 130 gr TTSX's for my 308 at 3050 fps. At under 200 yards that bullet will behave much like a 180 from a 300 WM. I'd still use that load out to about 300 yards. But for longer shots would prefer a heavier lead bullet that will still expand with slower impact speeds.
*Copper bullets retain 100% or very near that after impact vs 20% to 80% for lead based bullets. It takes a pretty tough conventional bullet to retain 80% of it's weight. As a result you don't need to use a bullet nearly as heavy. A 130 gr copper bullet will give you about the same penetration and do the same damage as a 180 gr lead bullet that loses 25% of its weight at impact.
*Copper bullets need to impact at much faster speeds in order to expand. Most lead bullets will expand down to 1800 fps and many as slow as 1600 fps. Copper needs at least 2000 fps at impact and 2200 is better.
*Copper works very well at close to moderate ranges on even very large game. Often with great results when using calibers and bullet weights normally considered too small.
*Not the best choice at extended ranges where bullet speed has dropped below about 2000 fps. But most will retain that speed out to 350-400 yards which is as far as most will shoot anyway.
*Most of the time when you read of copper failing it is because people try to use the same bullet weights they would normally use and don't shoot them fast enough. If you look at recovered copper bullets with impact speeds below 2200 fps expansion is poor. Below 2000 fps and you essentially have a FMJ.
I load 130 gr TTSX's for my 308 at 3050 fps. At under 200 yards that bullet will behave much like a 180 from a 300 WM. I'd still use that load out to about 300 yards. But for longer shots would prefer a heavier lead bullet that will still expand with slower impact speeds.
bamaranger
New member
suspicious
I am very skeptical of the whole environmentally friendly bullet movement for hunting and am disappointed to see the major ammo companies jump on board so enthusiastically. The industry seems to be playing right into the hands of the green people. I suspect that the industry knows more than we do, (about the future) and that cost may be a driving factor as well.
I hear that lead is now hard to obtain, and certainly traditional lead projectiles have risen in cost. All this due to environmental regulation is the chatter. But as noted my jmr40's post, copper/alloy slugs do not perform as lead, and an entire industry and sport use spins around the performance of lead slugs, at certain velocities and weights, with certain rifling twists, to certain distances, etc etc.
When lead shot became banned for waterfowl, the duck hunting world was turned upside down, and to me has never been the same, as we searched for and used options that either cost more than lead, or performed markedly more poorly.
I fear we are on the verge of the same for the rifleman.
I am very skeptical of the whole environmentally friendly bullet movement for hunting and am disappointed to see the major ammo companies jump on board so enthusiastically. The industry seems to be playing right into the hands of the green people. I suspect that the industry knows more than we do, (about the future) and that cost may be a driving factor as well.
I hear that lead is now hard to obtain, and certainly traditional lead projectiles have risen in cost. All this due to environmental regulation is the chatter. But as noted my jmr40's post, copper/alloy slugs do not perform as lead, and an entire industry and sport use spins around the performance of lead slugs, at certain velocities and weights, with certain rifling twists, to certain distances, etc etc.
When lead shot became banned for waterfowl, the duck hunting world was turned upside down, and to me has never been the same, as we searched for and used options that either cost more than lead, or performed markedly more poorly.
I fear we are on the verge of the same for the rifleman.
shootbrownelk
New member
Bamaranger, I've used Barnes X, Nosler E-Tip, Hornady GMX lead-free copper alloy bullets. For me, they outperform lead cup/core bullets by a wide margin. Other than the looney state of California who mandate lead free bullets, I'm not aware of any "Green" conspiracy here. I've used the Barnes X bullets for 25 years, I'm branching out to the others now...similar performance. I can shoot a 130 gr. Barnes TTSX at much higher velocities than lead 165/180's and the Barnes will retain over 95% of it's loaded weight. I'm going to use Nosler 80 gr. E-tips in my .243 this year.
bamaranger
New member
good for you
I am glad to hear that you are having success with enviro bullets, and I am sure others are as well. I can remember when the Barnes bullets came out years ago,and several noted writers singing their praises regards performance. Barnes had indeed found what appears to be a better bullet.
Before this gets all political, and locked because of my own looney ideas, I will grant that the alloy slugs have some merit and likely a growing future for what ever reasons. I will stay traditional and shoot lead/copper for all of my hunting and best wishes to all if they shoot otherwise, by choice or regulation.
I am glad to hear that you are having success with enviro bullets, and I am sure others are as well. I can remember when the Barnes bullets came out years ago,and several noted writers singing their praises regards performance. Barnes had indeed found what appears to be a better bullet.
Before this gets all political, and locked because of my own looney ideas, I will grant that the alloy slugs have some merit and likely a growing future for what ever reasons. I will stay traditional and shoot lead/copper for all of my hunting and best wishes to all if they shoot otherwise, by choice or regulation.
In searching this subject on Google it seems that in parts of Africa copper bullets are preferred purely on a performance basis and I was wondering if others had experience on game animals here that backed that up.
For instance if the 2000 FPS is key to a copper bullet performing well a glance at the ballistic charts and my absolute max. shooting distance of 300 yards with a 243 tell me I am within the parameters to expect performance (from an 85 grain copper bullet loaded towards 3200 FPS muzzle velocity)
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My rifles used to shoot cup and core at moa.
They now shoot copper MOA. Find the right bullet for your rifle and you're equally golden.
Both bullet types need a certain speed on impact to fully open. That speed required by copper is a bit higher, so you can't throw as long and hope the bullet will do your work for you, but if you aim well and hit what you aim at, then either will get it done.
good luck out there
They now shoot copper MOA. Find the right bullet for your rifle and you're equally golden.
Both bullet types need a certain speed on impact to fully open. That speed required by copper is a bit higher, so you can't throw as long and hope the bullet will do your work for you, but if you aim well and hit what you aim at, then either will get it done.
good luck out there
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
As I believe.
California tree huger's and rock kisser's Fathered such Law.
"The use of Lead and or lead core bullets is strictly verboten i.e. illegal to hunt with."
California tree huger's and rock kisser's Fathered such Law.
"The use of Lead and or lead core bullets is strictly verboten i.e. illegal to hunt with."
I had not heard the CA "no lead bullet" law covered the entire state, although it is not unexpected since such laws tend to be expanded, once passed.
I do recall the original lead ban came with the claim that it was done to "protect" the California Condor, and only applied in condor habitat regions.
I'm not a CA resident, and I don't visit there, so I'm not up on the current laws. I have a friend who does visit CA, sometimes, and he's looking for non-lead ammo, or just bullets, for his .348 Winchester, so he can use the old girl hunting on his next CA visit.
So far, he's not having much luck. Barnes apparently dropped that caliber some time ago. Anyone having or knowing a source for .348 cal non-lead bullets, please, let us know.
I do recall the original lead ban came with the claim that it was done to "protect" the California Condor, and only applied in condor habitat regions.
I'm not a CA resident, and I don't visit there, so I'm not up on the current laws. I have a friend who does visit CA, sometimes, and he's looking for non-lead ammo, or just bullets, for his .348 Winchester, so he can use the old girl hunting on his next CA visit.
So far, he's not having much luck. Barnes apparently dropped that caliber some time ago. Anyone having or knowing a source for .348 cal non-lead bullets, please, let us know.
"...California tree huger's and rock kisser's Fathered such Law..." Yep and their rabidly anti-hunting brethren. The amount of lead put into the atmosphere by bullets is negligible, but if banning lead cored bullet makes hunting and/or getting into hunting a nuisance and more expensive, that'll do.
Not 100% convinced migratory birds were eating lead shot either.
Not 100% convinced migratory birds were eating lead shot either.
Model12Win
Moderator
I have heard silver would be an excellent choice for a non lead bullet yet is to expensive and best reserved for daemons. 
ShootistPRS
New member
Cast silver is too hard for a good bullet. It also takes about 1600F to make good castings.
Aside from the Lone Ranger I have never heard of anyone using silver bullets.
Aside from the Lone Ranger I have never heard of anyone using silver bullets.
Silver is softer than copper, I was told. I don't remember any special dies to draw the silver.
I do know in the early seventies we would some generators for Mexico, out of silver wire.
They furnished the silver. They had more silver than copper back then.
So there is at leas one dam in Mexico with silver wound generators.
I do know in the early seventies we would some generators for Mexico, out of silver wire.
They furnished the silver. They had more silver than copper back then.
So there is at leas one dam in Mexico with silver wound generators.
reynolds357
New member
I started shooting Barnes X long before I knew they were supposed to be environmentally friendly. Only thing I knew is they did no blow to smithereens in my 7STW.
Jack O'Conner
New member
Copper has less density than lead which means a copper bullet will be longer given the same weight. Longer bullets intrude deeply into the case which means a lower powder charge is req'd to retain critical overall length of the loaded cartridge. This is why a lighter bullet must be used.
I'm very pleased with the performance of plain but effective lead core bullets. No copper bullets for me!
Jack
I'm very pleased with the performance of plain but effective lead core bullets. No copper bullets for me!
Jack
I've used Barnes TTX and found that they fouled the bore and difficult to clean out. After switching to Hornady GMX in .243 Win, .270 Win, and 30-06, we had no fouling and all deer shot were clean kills. I like the fact that we're not eating meat tainted by lead, nor are eagles or other critters.
I've read scientific reports stating that lead powder/particles found in animals killed by conventional bullets can travel through the circulatory system and show up on X-Rays of meat.
The GMX bullets have been stellar on Maine whitetails from 30-400 yards, especially out of my .270 Win at 3,250 fps m/v. (Reloder 22, CCI Mag Primers)
I've read scientific reports stating that lead powder/particles found in animals killed by conventional bullets can travel through the circulatory system and show up on X-Rays of meat.
The GMX bullets have been stellar on Maine whitetails from 30-400 yards, especially out of my .270 Win at 3,250 fps m/v. (Reloder 22, CCI Mag Primers)