No one has addressed the real problem!

S

Scott Evans

Staff Alumnus
In the wake of the recent shootings I am amazed at the complete lack of intelligent discussion on the actual problem. I am hearing as all of you are “… we have to do something to get the guns out of the hands of the children ..."”and other such foolishness.

The problem is not weapons in our society.

The problem is not even weapons at school …. Yes you heard me right weapons at school are not the problem.

My father tells me that when he was in Grade School and High School he would frequently bring his rifle with him to school in the morning (as would many other students). He would leave it in the office with the principal. After school he and the other boys would get their rifles and hunt rabbits on the way home. Often his catch was the reason for meat on the table that night. My father did not grow up in some rural area where families lived miles apart. He grew up in Gloucester, NJ a few miles from Philadelphia. Never an incident of mass killing or shooting rampages. Why? … Why is it that my father’s generation could trust children at school with guns and we cannot.

The problem with the recent killings is the children who did the killing.

Why is our generation fostering murderous children? Why did my father’s generation not?

In the differences between the two lies the answer to our societies problems.


"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaiah 5:20"
 
Scott. Your father did not have computer games like Doom, Professional Doom,Doom2, Mortal Kombat, etc. Your father did not have movies such as Natural Born Killers, etc. to entertain him. Movies "back then" had a moral of some kind. Mostly good guys win, bad guys lose. Then TV was sprung upon us. I sometimes think that this was the worst thing that could have happened too this world.
There was an article in the paper about a year or so ago. Seem there is a remote village in Northern Canada, that until a few years ago, had NO TELEVISION. (emphasis mine)
There was LITTLE, OR NO VIOLENCE among these people.(again, emphasis mine)
Then a cable company set up a satellite dish and provided TV for these people with the usual garbage we are all blessed with. Within 3 years the violence in this remote town had escalated several hundred percent especially among the teen-agers.(unfortunately I don't remember the exact figure, but it was high.) This falls under the "suspicions confirmed" category to me. But then we must not "infringe" upon TV and movie makers First Amendment rights. Right?
Have you played any of the violent video games, such as Doom? Or Wolf 3D, which is mild compared to some? I have. When I got my first computer, my stepson got Doom and Wolf 3D for me. Play them at the highest (hardest) levels, and see how you feel. I stopped playing them, as it raised unholy hell with my blood pressure. Heck, listening to Slick Willie does enough to aggravate it already. I don't need a game to help it along. You actually fall into a "combat" mode, just as in a real war almost. I would play a couple of rounds of Wolf, and it left me with that same feelings as I experienced after a firefight in "Nam".
Just someting to consider as what I feel is a large part of the problem.
Paul B.

COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
 
Paul..

I think that was an Inuit (Eskimo) village. Not only did the violence sky-rocket, but the traditions took a similar nose dive. The teens became sullen and refused to do the necessary hunting/fishing chores because kids in other places didn't have to. As I recall, alcoholism shot up as well. Bad bad juju that was.

Just for these type reasons and just the garbage broadcasted I won't get a satellite dish. I'm missing out on a lot of outdoor shows I'd like to see but, oh well.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Paul - whoah, there! I love some of the DOOM type computer games. I'm a huge fan of Marilyn Manson and Rob Zombie, and many lesser known "evil" performers and bands. I don't watch a lot of television, and I've heard of the study you mention, and agree you've a point there. My point? I understand the difference between fantasy and reality. I take responsibility for my own actions. My father taught me right from wrong, and guided me until I could make my own decisions, and well. No, he doesn't like my music. No, we don't agree on many things. But he made sure I grew up to be a man, not a manchild. Some kids never make it to true adulthood, no matter how good their parenting - but that's a very small number.

To end my rambling, only the person who does the wrong is responsible, but the parents are likely culpable.
 
Hey guys, I play a LOT of Quake II (Doom^4), Half-Life (super QuakeII), etc. I couldn't tell you about other players, but for me it has more of a calming effect, like going to the range after a rough week. If these kids couldn't differentiate reality from a game, they have a lot more than an entertainment influence problem.

Then again, I still think we should advocate that the entertainment industry be held responsible, for no other reason than they would hold gun manufacturers and owners responsible for the same.

Ever notice that these things usually involve no more than two perps? It's easy for one buddy to influence the other to do something that they probably wouldn't do on their own. Then it kind of feeds on itself as they bounce the idea back and forth. It would be damn hard to get three or more involved, as one of which would probably have a moderating effect.


[This message has been edited by Destructo6 (edited April 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Destructo6 (edited April 21, 1999).]
 
Back in the olden days they had movies like White Heat, a classic where the homicidal gangster (ferociously played by James Cagney) became the most attractive character in a cast of turncoats, stoolpigeons and faceless coppers. Back in the olden days, they had movie serials like The Spider's Web, where a masked vigilante killed SCORES of the enemy. These programs and more filled the screen with mostly bloodless death (making movie murder look so much more casual and harmless than it does today). Native Americans were demonized in westerns, minorities were ignored or mocked in other films. A few cents could get a child hours of entertainment in the theater; cheap candy and the all too rare air conditioning of the movie houses attracted its share of repeat viewers.

Lurid "pulp" magazines filled shop racks. Dozens of crime, horror, fantasy, science fiction and adventure mags were released each week. Books, comics and radio exposed more children to senseless violence.

Videogames would have been the stuff of science fiction. Ditto the internet. Television was, I think, known about but it would be some years before it became mass marketed. But children of the thirties and forties had there share of questionable entertainment...as well as an awareness of the war raging around the globe.

Wonder what the public perception of firearm ownership was in those good old days?
Jeff
 
I think quite a bit of the problem has to do with the media and other groups wanting people to be "tolerant" of anything and everything. Many of these kids are taught to never make a judgement. The ole, "Who am I (or you) to judge them/he/me?" Hard calls and judgements are to be avoided.
 
Paul-
I have to disagree. Scott's dad probably had Bogart, Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, George Raft and others who killed scores with each movie...he didn't grow up to be a mob-guy.

I grew up with the Bat Masterson, The Lone Ranger, The Rough Riders, The Rifleman, Wanted Dead or Alive, The Rebel, Tombstone Territory, Gunsmoke, Yancy Derringer, The Swamp Fox (Disney TV series)....I could go on and on. Some of these shows were half comedy; some great social comment. But all included gratuitous violence.

And still I (and thae vast majority of my generation)have yet to shoot anyone who wasn't shooting at us first. Massive violence?...never in our repertoire.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited April 21, 1999).]
 
Rich,

Sounds as if we grew up on the same fare. Few of our generation have gone the mass murder route. And they usually had a brain tumor.

I play Quake II and have yet to acquire an overpowering urge to go on a rampage as a result. I personally believe it is the failure of my generation (baby boomers) as parents. Self absorbed, self indulgent, where's mine? We have failed to teach our children values or have taught them false values.

I personally have no problem with gratuitous violence in movies and on TV. I just want them to show the entire picture. Ever watched anyone die from trauma? I have many times. They don't lie there and talk about telling mama I love her. They shake, scream, convulse, puke, and urinate and defecate on themselves if they are conscious. I think a large part of the problem is the way TV and movies divorce violence from the consequences of violence. I once worked on a gangbanger who had been machine gunned. Hit about eight times. He was shaking so badly he was bouncing on the stretcher. Conscious. Wanted to know what was wrong. I told him he was dying and it didn't look as if we could save him. He suddenly wasn't a bad ass anymore. It wasn't like the movies.
 
Hey, everybody, you're both right. I dare say that part of the answer is that most people AREN'T susceptable to the influence of these violent games and entertainments. We could play DOOM all day long, and never hurt a flea. But some small minority of the population ARE susceptable to influences of this sort. The question is, why, and what can be done about it? I agree, censorship is NOT the answer. Paying closer attention is AN answer; In all of these schoolyard shootings I've looked at, there were MEGA warning signs, which got ignored.
 
It is not simply the influences of the media, and ethically devoid pass time technology. It is the complete absence of character building in our society. It matters what children learn about character and moral responsibility. Certainly this is the job of the parents. Today some are taking this task seriously and some are not. However, in generations past the message of good citizenship and moral character was reinforced in many areas of society. Schools taught it (not today), Sports heroes espoused it, men and women in every area of our community reinforced it. For instance: when I was a boy I would not defy my father or I knew I would pay a price. Same with my uncles and Grand father … same with my fathers friends. They were friends of my father and knew what he believed and reinforced it even when my dad was not around. The point is people were concerned enough about the next generation that they would do something or say something or be conscious of their actions so as not to adversely influence the youth around them.

Today it is not so … in fact you are at great risk if you do or say any thing. Example: a friend of mine saw a boy who was 14 years old throwing rocks threw the plate glass windows of a local business after hours. My friend stopped his vehicle and made every effort to stop the kid but to no avail. Finally he grabbed the kid and put him in his car and drove him less then ½ mile away to the kid’s house and delivered him to his mother. He told her the story and she was furious … not at her son but at my friend … she threatened to called the cops … not for her son but for my friend ... she threatened to sue. My friend left and reported the incident to the sheriff and the next day called the business to inform them as to what had happened to their property. They did not want to press charges as it involved more time and money then it was worth.

Problems I see

Our society has made every effort to make GOD a myth … that only the uneducated and backward believe in. They pretend to have advanced beyond need for a GOD in our society. This is destructive for many reasons, one being that if GOD dose not exist then I have no fear of judgement in the hereafter. Second with out GOD mans laws are meaningless and subject to the whims of the day as there is no final authority and judge of right and wrong, good and evil. So … I will do what I like no matter what.

The philosophy that we can make enough laws and rules to eliminate any and all tragedy. This stems from the false idea that man is inherently GOOD and on an evolutionary tract of improvement. The arrogance that this generation is advanced beyond all the wisdom of all the ages past. That we do not need the lessons of history. My fathers generation operated from the perspective that man is inherently evil and if left unchecked will chose the low road. Children must learn morality, must learn good behavior, however, nothing is required to be added for wickedness.

Instant gratification: “I want it … I deserve it … GIVE it to me … now ” is becoming the creed of this generation. Not so before … My father would constantly say things like “ an honest days work for an honest days pay” and “If a man is able to and won’t work he shouldn’t eat”.

Integrity: The ability to lie is a skill to be desired by today’s generation … and people who the truth are stupid. To my father reputation was more then important.

Courage: is dyeing in our country.

Like Mr. Heston stated in one of his recent speeches “There is a battle for the underling foundational philosophy in our nation.” Violence, Gun control, loss of freedoms and all the rest are symptoms and consequences evidencing our losses in this battle.
 
What causes the breakdown of our society (and our kids)?

- Inability to distinguish reality from fantasy (agreed, Morgan).
- Government schools trying to turn children against their parents (It happened here, with my family. Didn't work. :) ).
- Parents watching TV instead of their kids.
- Increased leisure time.
- Lack of training in honest values (e.g. integrity, labor, thrift, etc.)
- Availability of distractions (greater than ever before, right?).

Ok, folks, is that a good beginning? Let's sincerely work on a list of causes (rather than symptoms). I'll bet you'll find a lot of causes also relate to the Second Amendment.

We must secure that Keystone Amendment if we are to have any effect on our list of causes and turn our country from the path of decline.
 
Brett, thank you for that <a href="http://www.detnews.com/EDITPAGE/9904/22/viewpoint/viewpoint.htm">Detroit News column</a> (here's a link for anyone too lazy to cut and paste ;)). I'm not sure it says it all, but it says a hell of a lot. I've e-mailed it to everyone I know.
 
I have no sentimentality or pretensions about our species. I view humankind as gifted animals who may (or may not) have a divine purpose on this beautiful yet savage earth. Our ancestors didn't inherit this world where mass fauna and flora extinctions had been occurring for millions of years, they struggled to survive in a harsh environment (with apologies to creationists). Tools and weapons certainly played a part in the "civilizing" of nature, though we should never forget that we do not control the world but are merely part of it.

It is only human to use weapons.

Lot of folks will find that hard to digest. Humans, ANIMALS? No, never!

As gifted as we are, we seem to be a troubled and fallible species. When an animal or plant species proves itself fallible, it may eventually grow extinct for any number of reasons (such as an inability to adapt to the changing environment).

I think part of the problem is that many many individuals regard the race to be something more divine and pretentious than what it is; we are described as being made in god's image, are told over and over again how cultured we are...

Yet, so many millions of people are affected by actions and attitudes from their neighbors that are clearly not divine and obviously not civilized. We all have the capacity for savage thoughts but relatively "few" actually act them out. Those few have been able to destabilize the human world since history was first recorded.

I look to our media and entertainment as a symptom of our turmoil, a means to evaluate what concerns us. Pop culture often says alot about the society that produces it but most of its influence ( dress, attitudes, etc), in the form of fads, fades over time to be replaced by yet more trends.
Jeff




[This message has been edited by Jffal (edited April 22, 1999).]
 
Scott - <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Our society has made every effort to make GOD a myth … that only the uneducated and backward believe in. They pretend to have advanced beyond need for a GOD in our society.[/quote]

I have only one thing to say to that - AMEN, BROTHER


------------------
Kelly

Deo Vindice
 
We don't have an accepted belief system anymore. The cards have been tossed up in the air and folks are grabbing at whatever is convenient.

Our real problem is a politico/socio demand for acceptance....not tolerance, acceptance and then embracement....distilled down to all the ramifications of enforced PC.

These days you are wrong for not liking someone...it invades past normal tolerance.
From a biological standpoint, there are always "outlyers" beyond the standard bellcurve. Deviations are accepted until they become too "prominent". What is tragic about our current culture is that we now have political Lamarckism....this is exactly what impeded Stalinist Russian science by way of Lysenko's influence
(Lamarck was an 18th century French naturalist, who believed that responces to environment caused heritable adaptive changes in subsequent generations..i.e. over time one could make a giraffe from a horse by making the horse stretch its neck, succeeding generations of horses would have increasingly longer necks. Lysenko (a failed plant breeder) was a favorite of Stalin and Joe made him in charge of all Soviet science, cuz he convinced Joe that science and subsequent human nature would be heritable...in short he and Joe believed that they could breed true communists by making prior generations adapt)

We do that now....we reward deviancy with equal and even more than equal status and privileges. It is demanded of us to give more than tolerance.


I haven't worked this all out yet but I think I'm correct :)

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top